A Question about VFR into IMC

David Megginson said:
And the instrument-rated pilots who are years out of currency/recency are an even bigger menace, because of their overconfidence in a past skill that has long-ago atrophied.
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Note, I said "escape maneuver." Prolonged flight into a successful instrument approach indeed requires maintained skills.
Just look at the two crashes we've had in the past few months into the San Diego areas involving instrument rated and presumably current pilots failing to do things right.
 
flyingron said:
Note, I said "escape maneuver." Prolonged flight into a successful instrument approach indeed requires maintained skills.
Just look at the two crashes we've had in the past few months into the San Diego areas involving instrument rated and presumably current pilots failing to do things right.
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I wasn't replying to your post, but I do think there is a serious risk of overconfidence in rusty IFR pilots who think they still have the skills to get out of trouble if they end up in IMC, and fly closer to the edge, weather-wise, as a result.

If your IFR skills are out of date, it's best to plan as conservatively as you would if you were a VFR-only pilot. You'll have a much better chance of becoming an old pilot.
 
Yep, wasn't trying to contradict you, just agreeing with you and clarifying my earlier position.
 
Matthew said:
One of the demonstrations I’ve heard a lot over the years shows how much we rely on visual clues: stand on one foot, then close your eyes.
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That used to be part of flight physicals.

I asked the doc if it was better to be able to stand on one foot, or if it was better that you couldn’t. He said it didn’t matter. As long as he saw me correct both fore-and-aft and side-to-side before I fell over l, I passed. ;)
 
David Megginson said:
And the instrument-rated pilots who are years out of currency/recency are an even bigger menace, because of their overconfidence in a past skill that has long-ago atrophied.
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No argument there, fortunately most Instrument pilots are diligent about maintaining proficiency and fixing it if they lapse, at least the one's I have met. The VFR guys, not so much. It's ok to be confident, but if you want to fly near or in clouds, or fly in sub optimal weather, quit screwing around and get your instrument rating. Your 5 minutes under the hood with your instructor at your flight review every 2 years doesn't cut it.
 
flyingron said:
For example, it is my opinion that this is what happened to JFK Jr., here he is flying along at night along the coast of a fairly populated area. Then you descend down for approach and turn out over the open ocean. Nothing to look at. He's had some recent instrument training but doesn't use it. By the time he realizes he should he's hit the water.
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I still vividly remember that day. VERY hazy. I flew over the Chesapeake to Baltimore earlier in the day and the horizon was very difficult to discern over water. And that was in daylight. Got home later that afternoon and saw the news the next morning. I knew right away what had happened.
 
The Spin around the Bat or Dizzy Bat Game is a fair demonstration.
not sure which one you say is more extreme.

Dizzy Bat, will demonstrate what happens when you inner ear doesn't match what you are seeing, but is probably usually more extreme then experienced in IMC conditions.
Loss of control in IMC, can kill you.

it takes a lot of training to learn and understand how to fly the instruments instead of what you are feeling. Even then I think the problem is you have to realize you are getting into a situation where you need to respond differently than what your sensations are telling you, you need to do.

Brian
 
Surprised we haven’t brought up the Barany Chair. As @Velocity173 said earlier, spatial D is a m-f’er and this video explains why. Though it’s 26mins long, it’s a good physiological discussion and demonstration of what the body is going through once visual reference is removed.

The lecturer greatly generalizes and oversimplifies aircraft stability, but that’s not really the point. I recommend watching at 1.5x as the speaker is still quite understandable. There’s a couple minutes of intro, about 10mins of demo in the chair, and the last bit is the inner ear physiology at play.

 
I vividly remember the first time I experienced real spacial D. I was about to complete the F-16 B course and one of our last rides was a night refueling mission. We were at 25,000 feet on a moonlit night over a solid cloud deck at about 16,000 feet. I was number 2 in a four ship flying in loose formation. Sounds like an impossible situation to get disoriented... or so I thought.

We passed over the KC-135 which was flying in the opposite direction at 23,000 feet. The tanker was easy to spot because it was contrailing heavily. We started a gentle descending left turn and rolled out about 2 miles behind, slightly above and to the left of the tanker. Immediately after roll-out I looked down at the refueling notes I had jotted down on my kneeboard and when I looked up I had the distinct feeling of being in a pretty significant right bank. I remember feeling confused and glanced at the AI which was low down on the instrument panel, essentially between my knees. That only intensified my confusion as it showed that I was straight and level.

About this time I remembered that I was number 2 of a four ship and I got real worried about flying into one of the other jets. I got my eyes outside and looked to my right to see #3 exactly where he was supposed to be. I looked to my left and saw #1 in position as well. I then realized that the contrails of the tanker along with the underlying cloud deck gave me the illusion of a sloping cloud deck /bank angle.

Before this I had never really felt the panic that comes with spacial disorientation and honestly doubted that it could happen to me. This was after plenty of actual going through pilot training and the proceeding 8 months of the F-16 B course. I never forgot that lesson it taught me that spacial disorientation can happen to anyone and even when you least expect it. The difference that training and experience makes is in your ability to respond appropriately and in a timely manner.
 
TCABM said:
Surprised we haven’t brought up the Barany Chair. As @Velocity173 said earlier, spatial D is a m-f’er and this video explains why. Though it’s 26mins long, it’s a good physiological discussion and demonstration of what the body is going through once visual reference is removed.

The lecturer greatly generalizes and oversimplifies aircraft stability, but that’s not really the point. I recommend watching at 1.5x as the speaker is still quite understandable. There’s a couple minutes of intro, about 10mins of demo in the chair, and the last bit is the inner ear physiology at play.

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Yep, they had one at Ft Rucker right outside the classroom where flight physiology is taught. I’d like to say I have special “Spider Senses” and could tell when the ride stopped but I was just as jacked up as everyone else.
 
Brian Perry said:
I vividly remember the first time I experienced real spacial D. I was about to complete the F-16 B course and one of our last rides was a night refueling mission. We were at 25,000 feet on a moonlit night over a solid cloud deck at about 16,000 feet. I was number 2 in a four ship flying in loose formation. Sounds like an impossible situation to get disoriented... or so I thought.

We passed over the KC-135 which was flying in the opposite direction at 23,000 feet. The tanker was easy to spot because it was contrailing heavily. We started a gentle descending left turn and rolled out about 2 miles behind, slightly above and to the left of the tanker. Immediately after roll-out I looked down at the refueling notes I had jotted down on my kneeboard and when I looked up I had the distinct feeling of being in a pretty significant right bank. I remember feeling confused and glanced at the AI which was low down on the instrument panel, essentially between my knees. That only intensified my confusion as it showed that I was straight and level.

About this time I remembered that I was number 2 of a four ship and I got real worried about flying into one of the other jets. I got my eyes outside and looked to my right to see #3 exactly where he was supposed to be. I looked to my left and saw #1 in position as well. I then realized that the contrails of the tanker along with the underlying cloud deck gave me the illusion of a sloping cloud deck /bank angle.

Before this I had never really felt the panic that comes with spacial disorientation and honestly doubted that it could happen to me. This was after plenty of actual going through pilot training and the proceeding 8 months of the F-16 B course. I never forgot that lesson it taught me that spacial disorientation can happen to anyone and even when you least expect it. The difference that training and experience makes is in your ability to respond appropriately and in a timely manner.
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The DVD series “Attitude Flying With Dick Rutan” he describes a very similar episode only in F-100s behind a tanker. Good series by the way if anyone gets a chance to watch it.
 
Brian Perry said:
…night refueling mission. … We started a gentle descending left turn and rolled out about 2 miles behind, slightly above and to the left of the tanker….
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Seems like a non-standard join up. We always came in low, off high on the E-3. Was it briefed non-standard join up?
 
TCABM said:
Seems like a non-standard join up. We always came in low, off high on the E-3. Was it briefed non-standard join up?
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I don't remember the details since it was 31 years ago, but I seem to remember that the tanker was late to the orbit and we were pressed for time due to crew rest requirements. This led to a non-standard rejoin to expedite the process. My son just completed the B course and there was no air to air refueling training at all, I don't know but suspect that this is due to budget cuts. He will be trained at the operational unit level. It's strange to think that he may fly some of the same jets that I flew that long ago.
 
Brian Perry said:
… My son just completed the B course and there was no air to air refueling training at all...
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Wow. Nothing like getting on the boom for the first time during your MQT check.
 
Next year ASI is going to do a study on the 180 seconds to live but with a twist. With advancement in our GA fleet they will incorporate synthetic vision, AP and other aids to see how long a VFR pilot lasts in IMC. I am curious to see the results
 
Rgbeard said:
And here we are, discussing this with another non-pilot…. who’s convinced that it’s all smoke.
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Have you had the conversation with someone about why you can't just hang a ball from the ceiling or set a glass of water on the glare shield to tell you what's straight and level?

Scott has a good video on this ...

 
WannFly said:
Next year ASI is going to do a study on the 180 seconds to live but with a twist. With advancement in our GA fleet they will incorporate synthetic vision, AP and other aids to see how long a VFR pilot lasts in IMC. I am curious to see the results
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Contrary to the original study, I suppose they’ll find that pilots can’t be trained. ;)
 
One thing I've often wondered, does a bigger artificial horizon help?
 
MauleSkinner said:
Contrary to the original study, I suppose they’ll find that pilots can’t be trained. ;)
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I doubt they will find pilots who had zero instrument training like the original study used, since the hood requirement for the PPL went into effect since then.
 
Palmpilot said:
I doubt they will find pilots who had zero instrument training like the original study used, since the hood requirement for the PPL went into effect since then.
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True. And the end goal probably isn’t a technique that can be used by anybody with minimal training with equipment that a large percentage of airplanes already have.
 
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