A Question about VFR into IMC

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Hishighness

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Hishighness
Hey everyone, I'm someone who has only flown once and that was years ago. I wanted to learn to fly but a lot of things conspired so it didn't happen. But, I still consume a lot of aviation related content.

My question is how do VFR into IMC accidents happen, specifically how does someone lose their orientation? Obviously there's no single answer, but I just find it confusing how a pilot could lose the plane when they've got the artificial horizon there. Are VFR pilots not trained to use the instruments that much/rely on their view outside the plane so they don't really know what they show? Or is it more of a physical factor like your inner ear getting out of whack and even though the instrument is there and you can see it you don't trust it?

If there's anyone who reads this who has survived this type of situation I'd love to hear your story!

Thanks for reading everyone!
 
When a VFR pilot accidentally (?) enters IMC, the inner-ear begins to tell stories to the brain and this causes involuntary, as well as voluntary reactions.

It takes training and repeated exposure to keep the plane doing what you want it to. BTW, it's not JUST the AI, it's the altimeter, airspeed indicator and everything else at your disposal, and you need to learn to SCAN these in a somewhat rapid fashion so as not to focus on any one thing.

If it were as easy as you tend to believe it to be - "I just find it confusing how a pilot could lose the plane when they've got the artificial horizon there" just go up with your instructor, put on a vision-restriction device, have him cover everything except your beloved AI, and let's see how you do. I've got money on the line that 120 seconds from the beginning of the drill, you're in a near-hopeless situation and the instructor is taking over.

Report back with this one.

Our brains are not without weakness points. If things as as simple as you'd want them to be, how about a bicycle whose handles turn opposite of the front wheel? Can you just tell yourself that it's backwards, and ride the bike 100 feet? Just Google Backwards Bicycle for some entertaining and informative video.
 
Easy, you get caught up in getting out.

I was flying on top of what was supposed to be a thin, short layer once and went to go over a "hump." On the other side there was a wall of clouds the same darn color as the rest of the sky. I went to pull the 180 and in doing so didn't put enough back pressure into the turn. Wound up 5 degrees down, 30 degrees bank, and in the soup. Luckily was all of a checkride away from my IFR so my training kicked in, straight and level until clear of clouds.
 
As you said, there’s no one formula.

At least since the 1970s, all pilots have been taught basic instrument flying. And since pilots up to and including ATPs have experienced VFR into IMC accidents, it’s not specifically a lack of training on instrument flying.

Sometimes it’s a lack of preparedness for entering instrument conditions, sometimes it’s equipment malfunctions, sometimes it’s other stuff, but also as you indicated, one of the common denominators is disorientation, even with a full instrument panel. We get stressed, we tend to fixate on one instrument until we realize something is out of whack, and then make abrupt changes, increasing the level of disorientation. Maybe even the surprise factor of going into the clouds triggers an abrupt, reflexive maneuver to try to get back out. Pretty soon you believe some or all of your instruments are malfunctioning, and eventually either get into a steep spiral or pull the airplane apart trying to maneuver.

My tendency with inadvertent IMC is to not do anything quickly…the airplane was flying fine outside the clouds, and that doesn’t change in the clouds. Get the wings level if they’re not, and then figure out a plan of action.
 
I suggest you go up with an instructor and simulate a VFR into IMC encounter. It will likely satisfy your curiosity. :)
 
Short answer...spacial disorientation is a real thing thus your senses are no longer accurate to reality and the skills to both understand and trust your instruments over your natural instincts have not been developed yet.

I can still remember my first post IFR ticket flight in hard IMC all the way down to mins and thinking "...oh THIS is how pilots die!"...
 
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Well you lose orientation because of the overwhelming conflict of what your eyes see and what your inner ear is telling your brain. The common resolution that is offered is to always “trust your instruments.” I assure you, it’s not that simple. The disorientation can be so bad that it’s not about trusting instruments, it’s being so confused you can’t interpret what the instrument is telling you. Trusting the instrument is one thing, adjusting the controls to get the desired response while your head is tumbling / spinning (Coriolis Illusion) is a whole other matter. Hopefully one is flying an aircraft with an autopilot that takes over during such excursions. If not…:(
 
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When we fly VFR, we are largely flying visual, including input from our balance system. VFR pilots can correct visually.

A pilot depending on those same senses in the clouds will tend to get into a left descending bank and start accelerating going down, but the inner ear will feel like it’s normal. As they pull back on the yoke to slow down - because increasing the pitch angle normally makes you go slower - the bank gets tighter and they go down faster. Eventually they either over stress the airplane and it comes apart or they run out of air/lose control and hit the ground.
 
Generally, pilots get caught up in IMC through a chain of events.

Not getting an adequate weather briefing
Not properly assessing the risks for the flight
Not obtaining weather en route and monitoring temp/dew point spread.
Continued flight into deteriorating weather especially as the sun sets or at night.
Unwillingness to change the mission plan
Flight at night over water.

Here is a good video.
 
I believe the original thinking was the aircraft instruments went haywire once you entered a cloud - for some reason ;) That's just how powerful our 'senses' are.
 
Clip4 said:
Generally, pilots get caught up in IMC through a chain of events.

Not getting an adequate weather briefing
Not properly assessing the risks for the flight
Not obtaining weather en route and monitoring temp/dew point spread.
Continued flight into deteriorating weather especially as the sun sets or at night.
Unwillingness to change the mission plan
Flight at night over water.

Here is a good video.
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I've watched damn near every video on this channel. I love it. Videos like these are why I asked the question.

And yeah the whole inner ear thing makes a lot of sense, because on a simulator you won't have that so that's why it was hard for me to understand. How do pilots overcome that? like how are they trained to ignore it?
 
Hishighness said:
And yeah the whole inner ear thing makes a lot of sense, because on a simulator you won't have that so that's why it was hard for me to understand. How do pilots overcome that? like how are they trained to ignore it?
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Actually the simulator can be just as bad, or even worse, for the conflict between instruments and inner ear. The end result is just less dramatic.
 
My second experience with unplanned flight into the clouds was in Alaska (the first one was, too!) and I was over the Bering Sea with no visual references.

I was able to calmly make a 180 degree turn and fly out of the overcast, but during the turn I experience a bad case of "the leans." That is when you think you are level or turning when you are not. I flew the instruments and I recovered shortly after, but my head was unknowingly pressed against the side window the whole time.

The best plan is to avoid inadvertent flight into IMC, but knowing what actions to take and how to recover from it is essential.
 
As a fairly new VFR pilot, I can share my experience. With my instructor along (and at my request) we took off and deliberately flew into low clouds, after getting a 'pop-up' clearance. I got to experience the real thing. I found it a challenge (no autopilot, but with GPS), even under very benign circumstances. When all the windows suddenly turn gray, it's pretty unsettling, compared to what you're used to. Look at any one dial too long - the other ones will wander off - like a stray puppy. Throw in turns for an approach, turbulence, stress, and radio calls from ATC, and the challenge can only become greater. [FWIW, I am currently studying for the instrument ground.]
 
IK04 said:
My second experience with unplanned flight into the clouds was in Alaska (the first one was, too!) and I was over the Bering Sea with no visual references.

I was able to calmly make a 180 degree turn and fly out of the overcast, but during the turn I experience a bad case of "the leans." That is when you think you are level or turning when you are not. I flew the instruments and I recovered shortly after, but my head was unknowingly pressed against the side window the whole time.

The best plan is to avoid inadvertent flight into IMC, but knowing what actions to take and how to recover from it is essential.
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I got a bad case of vertigo during my Commercial training…I needed a few hours of instrument training. When I put on the hood, my instructor promptly requested a set of steep 720s, and for the next two hours it was ugly. I had read someplace about slowing the airplane down, so I put the gear down (172RG) and a notch of flaps, and things stabilized quite a bit.

but I still had trouble walking and driving when I got out.
 
Hishighness said:
I've watched damn near every video on this channel. I love it. Videos like these are why I asked the question.

And yeah the whole inner ear thing makes a lot of sense, because on a simulator you won't have that so that's why it was hard for me to understand. How do pilots overcome that? like how are they trained to ignore it?
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You fly simulators as available to get the core concepts.
You repeatedly fly real airplanes with vision-restricting devices to get the "wiring" in your CNS.

After earning your rating, when it's a yucky day, you get your butt up in the air.
 
I had completed about 8-10 IMC flights during training and was getting pretty arrogant about my awesome ability to avoid spatial disorientation. Every training maneuver my CFI threw at me to induce disorientation was ineffective as I was immune to it. And then it happened. We took off and entered clouds at 300' AGL. Climbing straight ahead was a cinch. At about 1,500' AGL ATC instructed me to turn left to 090. As I responded, I turned the aircraft and instinctively looked up from the panel and to the left. That small head/eye movement, the turn, the climb, and the absence of all external indicators was the trick. Suddenly I was certain that I was in a death spiral. In my panic, I saw that all the instruments were wrong and that I could not trust them. But before I jerked the yoke, I realized what was happening and forced myself to keep the yoke immobile. It's hard to describe that feeling: not trusting your panel, your body screaming that you're about to CFIT, but also understanding that you're experiencing spatial disorientation. My CFI (30k hours) was sitting next to me, but in my panic I had forgotten he was there to keep me alive. The feeling lasted about 4-5 seconds but felt like minutes. Waiting it out was the right move for me that day. The feeling dissipated and I continued on as if nothing happened. My CFI never knew until I told him during the debrief. He was quite pleased.
 
I got vertigo badly only once that I can recall while flying. It was very real and absolute. While just starting on my instrument rating, I was flying at night with the instructor in the clouds with a bit of turbulence as I recall...it took absolute and total concentration to muster every bit of will power I have to not roll that plane 90°. Just like dfw11411 described, I knew the instruments were correct...BUT I also knew for a fact that we were on our side. I would have bet every thing I owned that we were flying along on our side. It just didn't make any sense because I wasn't falling out of the seat. Somebody without training and help would absolutely NOT be able to do it. Just like spinning in a chair with your eyes closed, then walking a straight line...except that is more of a spinning dizzy feeling where what I experienced was more like a fixed lean.

I'm reminded of a time...I was either a freshly minted instrument rated pilot, or was just about ready for my check ride... whatever it was I was pretty much at the best that I ever got. Driving home from work in an extremely thick fog. Could barely see anything past the front bumper.... it was nearly as hard as that temptation to roll was in flight...except I was fighting the urge to not go eyes down in the cockpit and scan the instruments. It was really a very funny feeling.

And you asked, how does it happen? I recon a lot of the times its a very gradual thing. I never did it inadvertently but thought that I almost did once when I was a fresh VFR pilot. Visibility just slowly kept getting a little worse and a little more.... I was conservative enough that when i started to wonder if I was legal, I found an airport and landed. It really wasn't that bad and I continued my flight a bit later after I was able to analyze it better form the ground. I can imagine a lot of folks...especially ones that have more experience than I did at the time...pushing on through it till it was too late.
 
Regrettably, it is still apparently all to easy to have LOC or CFIT in VFR into IMC situations, even for instrument rated pilots. It is still a major category of fatal accidents. Sustaining instrument flight requires skill, practice, and concentration. Seems easy until you have to do it while juggling other mental balls at the same time.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Well you lose orientation because of the overwhelming conflict of what your eyes see and what your inner ear is telling your brain. The common resolution that is offered is to always “trust your instruments.” I assure you, it’s not that simple. The disorientation can be so bad that it’s not about trusting instruments, it’s being so confused you can’t interpret what the instrument is telling you. Trusting the instrument is one thing, adjusting the controls to get the desired response while your head is tumbling / spinning (Coriolis Illusion) is a whole other matter. Hopefully one is flying an aircraft with an autopilot that takes over during such excursions. If not…:(
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This^^^

Have you ever been stopped in traffic, and next to you, a large truck starts rolling backwards? What do you do? YOU PUSH HARDER ON YOUR BRAKES BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU'RE ROLLING!!!! Now think about this: that was when you were stopped, sitting completely still, yet your senses told you that you were moving, AND THAT WAS ONLY IN ONE DIMENSION!!! An airplane is in 3 dimensions...its bouncing, moving, able to go in any directions and pitch any which way...I'm surprised studies show it takes something like 180 seconds to get out of control. I'd think it would be 10 seconds or less.
 
Country Flier said:
I'm surprised studies show it takes something like 180 seconds to get out of control.
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One study, conducted using pilots with zero instrument training, in a complex airplane, as the baseline for training a technique that, IMO, is much better than the “fly like an instrument pilot, but with a lot less training” that the FAA requires.
 
One of my first lessons on my second go around with instrument training my instructor took me up in IMC. 1000 OVC layers. No turbulence. I thought I was ready. Brought my foggles and my CFI said I won’t need them. Get clearance. Take off runway heading IMC call departure. Making climbing turn to the first waypoint flying to first waypoint climbing..thinking I’m flying straight to waypoint. Keep trying to adjust. Think I’m ok. About 3 min in my instructor calmly says “don’t want to die in a death spiral today.” Look at AI snd I’m probably just under 60 deg turn. Turn left quickly and I thought I was going to fall out of the plane. I was in 60 deg turn and thought I was level climbing. The leans are a serious thing. Good forces you to look down. IMC no hood you have the added distraction of looking outside the plane, eyes off instruments and flying according to misguided senses.
 
Hishighness said:
how does someone lose their orientation
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You are sat in your chair reading this. You think you know up from down. You don’t
. You are at 45degrees of bank.
You can’t feel that can you?

Can you?
That’s how
 
years ago, when I had just gotten my IR, I had an argument with a non-pilot about this. The man was convinced that I was blowing the smoke up his .... trying to explain that your sense of direction is your enemy when you have no visual references. It's all in biology of inner ear. Works reasonably well when you are straight and level. Once any change is introduced(and it is always there intentionally or not) it is LYING to you. Training and practice is all about ignoring it and reading instruments properly. And even then if you are not ready for it or saturated with other tasks it is too easy to get lost in the fog in your head.
 
My personal opinion is that it's not the case that a non-instrument pilot can't manage at least an escape maneuver out of IMC by flying on instruments, it is that they don't realize that they NEED TO BE flying on instruments until it is too late. It's far too easy to continue to stare out into the nothingness (or a visual illusion in some cases) when you should be looking at the AI.

For example, it is my opinion that this is what happened to JFK Jr., here he is flying along at night along the coast of a fairly populated area. Then you descend down for approach and turn out over the open ocean. Nothing to look at. He's had some recent instrument training but doesn't use it. By the time he realizes he should he's hit the water.

In my own experience, I'm flying back from my first Oshkosh. I've got Paul Bertorelli in the right seat (he's a CFII). I've got no real instrument training at this point other than going through groundschool and passing the written. We're fairly high and go into some high cirrus (also got my first experience with ice). Paul says "don't lose it on me." and I realize I'm looking out into the nothingness. I switched to the instruments and flew the rest of the trip without issue.
 
Hishighness said:
Hey everyone, I'm someone who has only flown once and that was years ago. I wanted to learn to fly but a lot of things conspired so it didn't happen. But, I still consume a lot of aviation related content.

My question is how do VFR into IMC accidents happen, specifically how does someone lose their orientation? Obviously there's no single answer, but I just find it confusing how a pilot could lose the plane when they've got the artificial horizon there. Are VFR pilots not trained to use the instruments that much/rely on their view outside the plane so they don't really know what they show? Or is it more of a physical factor like your inner ear getting out of whack and even though the instrument is there and you can see it you don't trust it?

If there's anyone who reads this who has survived this type of situation I'd love to hear your story!

Thanks for reading everyone!
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Let's take a slightly different angle on this. As an instrument-rated pilot on an IFR flight plan, I experience the same sensations that a VFR-only pilot does when I enter solid IMC, especially when it's a low ceiling of solid stratus right after takeoff and everything just goes white. My body is absolutely convinced that I'm in a bank and need to level the wings, and it takes every bit of my training, experience, and recency to ignore that and trust the attitude indicator and turn coordinator. A VFR pilot wouldn't have a chance, because they'd believe the signals from their body and put the plane into a steep bank thinking they were leveling the wings.

Just being instrument rated isn't enough: you also need to be caught up with your recency/currency, which in Canada means at least 6 hours real or simulated IMC and six approaches to minima in real or simulated IMC in the last 6 months, and that's the absolute bare minimum (IFR currency rules in the US are slightly different, but the goal is the same).
 
Rgbeard said:
And here we are, discussing this with another non-pilot…. who’s convinced that it’s all smoke.
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Indeed. People that never encounter this phenomena are simply not ready to accept the reality when they do. It's simple as that. I even offered to take the man up in the airplane with foggles :), but that never materialized. He did like to argue with me(and others) all the time. We ended up working together later.
 
It happened to me, once, for just a couple seconds. I was legal, below the clouds and with plenty of clearance. I was approaching the airport and was looking down. What I didn’t see was that one gray cloud that blended into the gray sky background. A few things happened at once: I decided not to panic, I immediately went to instruments to keep wings level, and I knew I’d be out of it very quickly and not to do anything dumb until then.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well you lose orientation because of the overwhelming conflict of what your eyes see and what your inner ear is telling your brain. The common resolution that is offered is to always “trust your instruments.” I assure you, it’s not that simple. The disorientation can be so bad that it’s not about trusting instruments, it’s being so confused you can’t interpret what the instrument is telling you. Trusting the instrument is one thing, adjusting the controls to get the desired response while your head is tumbling / spinning (Coriolis Illusion) is a whole other matter. Hopefully one is flying an aircraft with an autopilot that takes over during such excursions. If not…:(
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This! When I flew right seat to my husband we always went over what to do if he became incapacitated. Verify autopilot ON was first. Verify straight and level by the instruments, contact ATC, declare emergency and request vectors to nearest VMC airport.

Flying on instruments means believing your analytical intellectual interpretation of a complex set of symbols instead of what your million years of evolution lizard brain is screaming at you.
 
Matthew said:
It happened to me, once, for just a couple seconds. I was legal, below the clouds and with plenty of clearance. I was approaching the airport and was looking down. What I didn’t see was that one gray cloud that blended into the gray sky background. A few things happened at once: I decided not to panic, I immediately went to instruments to keep wings level, and I knew I’d be out of it very quickly and not to do anything dumb until then.
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Almost the same thing happened to me as a ST. Decided not to make any changes and fly straight & level and I was out of it in a few seconds although it felt like eternity.
 
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dfw11411 said:
I had completed about 8-10 IMC flights during training and was getting pretty arrogant about my awesome ability to avoid spatial disorientation. Every training maneuver my CFI threw at me to induce disorientation was ineffective as I was immune to it. And then it happened. We took off and entered clouds at 300' AGL. Climbing straight ahead was a cinch. At about 1,500' AGL ATC instructed me to turn left to 090. As I responded, I turned the aircraft and instinctively looked up from the panel and to the left. That small head/eye movement, the turn, the climb, and the absence of all external indicators was the trick. Suddenly I was certain that I was in a death spiral. In my panic, I saw that all the instruments were wrong and that I could not trust them. But before I jerked the yoke, I realized what was happening and forced myself to keep the yoke immobile. It's hard to describe that feeling: not trusting your panel, your body screaming that you're about to CFIT, but also understanding that you're experiencing spatial disorientation. My CFI (30k hours) was sitting next to me, but in my panic I had forgotten he was there to keep me alive. The feeling lasted about 4-5 seconds but felt like minutes. Waiting it out was the right move for me that day. The feeling dissipated and I continued on as if nothing happened. My CFI never knew until I told him during the debrief. He was quite pleased.
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That seems to be the sweet spot for disorientation, right after takeoff into IMC + a turn after departure.
 
I have met lots of VFR only pilots who think they will be fine VFR into IMC and fly in weather they shouldn't. They almost all tell me they do fantastic under the hood with an instructor. That's not the same. They fly vfr in weather I will not fly Vfr in. That's how it happens. You get away with that until you don't.
 
PaulS said:
I have met lots of VFR only pilots who think they will be fine VFR into IMC and fly in weather they shouldn't. They almost all tell me they do fantastic under the hood with an instructor. That's not the same. They fly vfr in weather I will not fly Vfr in. That's how it happens. You get away with that until you don't.
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And the instrument-rated pilots who are years out of currency/recency are an even bigger menace, because of their overconfidence in a past skill that has long-ago atrophied.
 
dfw11411 said:
I had completed about 8-10 IMC flights during training and was getting pretty arrogant about my awesome ability to avoid spatial disorientation. Every training maneuver my CFI threw at me to induce disorientation was ineffective as I was immune to it. And then it happened. We took off and entered clouds at 300' AGL. Climbing straight ahead was a cinch. At about 1,500' AGL ATC instructed me to turn left to 090. As I responded, I turned the aircraft and instinctively looked up from the panel and to the left. That small head/eye movement, the turn, the climb, and the absence of all external indicators was the trick. Suddenly I was certain that I was in a death spiral. In my panic, I saw that all the instruments were wrong and that I could not trust them. But before I jerked the yoke, I realized what was happening and forced myself to keep the yoke immobile. It's hard to describe that feeling: not trusting your panel, your body screaming that you're about to CFIT, but also understanding that you're experiencing spatial disorientation. My CFI (30k hours) was sitting next to me, but in my panic I had forgotten he was there to keep me alive. The feeling lasted about 4-5 seconds but felt like minutes. Waiting it out was the right move for me that day. The feeling dissipated and I continued on as if nothing happened. My CFI never knew until I told him during the debrief. He was quite pleased.
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I had a very similar experience only I was a student in the Army in helicopters. I too had almost an arrogance in that instruments so far had been somewhat easy and I was number one in my class ranking at the time. Anyway, there I was in IMC and doing the VOR 18 into EUF Alabama. Just coming out of the PT in a descending right turn. Everything is looking good until my IP directs my attention to a switch in the overhead panel. Don’t even remember what switch it was but I was thinking, why in the hell does he care about that switch right now. So I quickly look up and left, say “yep that’s good” and look back at the panel. Oh ****! My whole world was a spinning, tumbling mess. If it weren’t for the fact that I was worried about my grade, I would’ve transferred the controls. :D For some reason I instinctively went back to training and “delayed intuitive reaction until reoriented.” So I let go of both cyclic and collective and tried to work the problem. The aircraft was doing fine before I got jacked up, it should continue to be fine for the time being. Fixated on the AI (scan neglect) I kept saying to myself “blue is up, blue is up…I do want blue up?” Took several more seconds to realize I needed to do something about this HSI spinning towards my inbound course but I wasn’t sure how to fix that. I had to mentally talk through the intercept and didn’t even try and roll out until I actually intercepted. Shot thru final, zig zagged a few times but ended up doing a decent approach. The whole episode took maybe 20-30 seconds but felt like a lifetime.

Back at the debrief table, I was going to keep my spatial D episode to myself when my IP asked why he brought my attention to the overhead panel. I had no idea but he did that intentionally to induce Spatial D. I leaned back in the chair and was like “whoa! It worked perfectly.” Aircraft was descending right, I turned my head up and left and induced Coriolis illusion. Overwhelming.

Fast forward to today flying EMS, every now and then I get a medcrew who ask the same question as the OP and I tell them that story. If it were a simple matter of trusting instruments well we’d hardly ever have IMC CFIT accidents. In my case, I knew my instruments were accurate, I just couldn’t interpret what they were telling me. I was basically scanning with no understanding of what I was seeing. Essentially I was a sand bag along for the ride. Never before or since have I been that disoriented while flying on instruments in actual.
 
There's a reason they call them "sucker holes".
 
Velocity173 said:
In my case, I knew my instruments were accurate, I just couldn’t interpret what they were telling me. I was basically scanning with no understanding of what I was seeing.
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Cognitive dissonance. Your brain (which you'd relied on 24/7 for 20 years and is THE most reliable instrument around) is telling you one thing, and a bunch of dials are telling you something else. It becomes compartmentalization time where you have to intentionally ignore the brain. I can only imagine.
 
VFR guy here -

it’s also difficult to get adjusted to the new PID tuning parameters. That’s what usually gets me when I put on the hood. It takes a few seconds to remember the instruments DO work, but don’t respond as quickly as you think they do. And a lot can happen in those few seconds.

One of the demonstrations I’ve heard a lot over the years shows how much we rely on visual clues: stand on one foot, then close your eyes.
 
Matthew said:
One of the demonstrations I’ve heard a lot over the years shows how much we rely on visual clues: stand on one foot, then close your eyes.
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I can't maintain balance on one foot very long with both eyes open. ;-)
 
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