A plea for sanity

U

Unregistered

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I could use a little common sense help. I post this anonymously because some of you know my situation.

A friend of mine and I are engaged in a battle to reaquire some money we had invested in a club organization that suddenly turned very ugly. The sole owner decided to change the rules of the organization and make them retroactive for four years. We decided to get out before it got worse, unfortunately the owner has decided not to honor his obligations.

That is not my question, just a little history. The question pertains to several rules violations on the owner's part. I don't know if it is a good idea to make them known to the proper authorities or not. The first deals with the person as an instructor. His instruction techniques are haphazard, inconsistent, and downright dangerous. His last student was making long cross countries to certain airports without his signoff, or his supervision. His (students) logbook was not signed off for ANYTHING that was ever done. His (students) medical was not signed by the CFI. The instructor would quite often take him up into IMC for long periods at a time. When I flew with the student on a trip I was taking, he told me that, according to the instructor, he was almost ready for his checkride. I started asking him some questions, and it appeared he knew very little about navigating by ANY method, nor had he even done steep turns yet. His radio skills were very limited, and he had no idea what flight following or VFR flight plans were. On his last flight, the instructor told him to fly toward a thunderstorm. This unnerved the student enough to quit with this instructor and find another. That is when he found out that all of his instruction was not logged or signed off properly. Another company has refused to give this instructor renewal instruction, branding him a "danger and menace who will kill someone."

My question here regards safety. Does one tell FSDO about this individual?

All of the addresses on his pilot record and airplane registration are several years old. Does one notify the appropriate people for those problems?

His corporation, consisting of himself, does not keep records in any semblance of order. Also the address of record is years old. Does one notify the state?

I do not want to appear vindictive, as I am sure I do, and I do not like a "tattle tale". However, what would be appropriate in these areas to keep this person from hurting another individual, or from spewing out incompetent pilots?

Sore from having too take legal action.
 
If this guy is instructing and not providing the proper endorsements for the student's sake let alone providing the required training for a safe student... YES, report his name to the FSDO. I can't imagine this guy has sent up a student for a written nor a practical test. Or, has he?

As for airman records, there's the thirty day rule to update an address. I'm sure similar applies to aircraft.

As for personal business and his upkeep of state records for a corporation, I have to wonder if he still has a legal corporation. In Georgia, after so long of non-renewal they automatically dissolve the corporation for you.

The latter two are entirely your decision but I wouldn't fly that aircraft if it's not properly registered. I'd be even more concerned about proper maintenance and records.

But, the first one... yes, report it. That's for the benefit of "students" he's instructing than for you or against him.
 
If the situation is as egregious as you describe, then yes, report him. If it were a questionable situation, then call the FAASteam representative, but this seems to be beyond that. OTOH, they'll probably require documentary evidence before they can act. They'll probably need to see the student's logbook, and perhaps have an affidavit from the student about the training he received (or didn't).
 
I agree -- report him at once. Folks like this cause three things to happen:
  1. They scare the FAA into writing more regulations and placing more restrictions on the rest of us.
  2. The accidents that result cause our insurance rates to go up.
  3. The accididents and incidents that result scare the public (especially airport neighbors) into trying to close/restrict our GA airports.
All of these directly affect the rest of us, so it is in our own self-interest to do what we can to put folks like this out of business, preferably permanently.
 
Ron Levy said:
I agree -- report him at once. Folks like this cause three things to happen:
  1. They scare the FAA into writing more regulations and placing more restrictions on the rest of us.
  2. The accidents that result cause our insurance rates to go up.
  3. The accididents and incidents that result scare the public (especially airport neighbors) into trying to close/restrict our GA airports.
All of these directly affect the rest of us, so it is in our own self-interest to do what we can to put folks like this out of business, preferably permanently.
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They also get people in the air and the ground KILLED. Ask yourself if you really want to share the skies with his students who are by no fault of their own unable to handle the responsibility putting their lives and the lives of others in danger.
 
Anon it seems you may have a bit of a conflict here.

First, you are apparently involved in a battle to get some monies which you claim are due you from this "owner"

Second, You are concerned about saftey issues involving "owners" opperation.

If you Report him to the FSDO I suppose they could shut down his operation ( I'd confrim with Ron on that) and thereby his income stream. By cutting off his income stream you may be shooting yourself in the foot financially. Now the owner may be very will off financially and it won't matter but if he needs the income stream he may not have enough to pay you or satisfiy a judgment if you get one.

On the other hand it sure sounds as if the instruction is really sub standard. Bruces old avitar is a good visual that comes to mind. The health and saftey of the students and those they may fly is very very serious stuff which would clearly warrant the FSDO be notified. Good luck on both accounts here.
 
AdamZ said:
Anon it seems you may have a bit of a conflict here.

First, you are apparently involved in a battle to get some monies which you claim are due you from this "owner"

Second, You are concerned about saftey issues involving "owners" opperation.

If you Report him to the FSDO I suppose they could shut down his operation ( I'd confrim with Ron on that) and thereby his income stream. By cutting off his income stream you may be shooting yourself in the foot financially. Now the owner may be very will off financially and it won't matter but if he needs the income stream he may not have enough to pay you or satisfiy a judgment if you get one.

On the other hand it sure sounds as if the instruction is really sub standard. Bruces old avitar is a good visual that comes to mind. The health and saftey of the students and those they may fly is very very serious stuff which would clearly warrant the FSDO be notified. Good luck on both accounts here.
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File a lien. The owner may go belly for other reasons. Therefore, time is of the essence.
 
If the monies are of any significance, then quit this place (figuratively) and get yourself a lawyer post haste.

A consult should cost little if anything and it may reveal if your situation warrants seeking redress, or not.

I will leave it to others to advise on the other matters.

Good luck,
 
AdamZ said:
Anon it seems you may have a bit of a conflict here.

First, you are apparently involved in a battle to get some monies which you claim are due you from this "owner"

Second, You are concerned about saftey issues involving "owners" opperation.

If you Report him to the FSDO I suppose they could shut down his operation ( I'd confrim with Ron on that) and thereby his income stream. By cutting off his income stream you may be shooting yourself in the foot financially. Now the owner may be very will off financially and it won't matter but if he needs the income stream he may not have enough to pay you or satisfiy a judgment if you get one.

On the other hand it sure sounds as if the instruction is really sub standard. Bruces old avitar is a good visual that comes to mind. The health and saftey of the students and those they may fly is very very serious stuff which would clearly warrant the FSDO be notified. Good luck on both accounts here.
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He doesn't use instructing as much of an income tool. He doesn't instruct many students, but I fear for the ones he does. According to the last student, the next instructors to teach him went to the FSDO, but nothing ever came of it.
 
ghopp said:
If the monies are of any significance, then quit this place (figuratively) and get yourself a lawyer post haste.

A consult should cost little if anything and it may reveal if your situation warrants seeking redress, or not.

I will leave it to others to advise on the other matters.

Good luck,
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Already have done that, thanks. Just have to let the legal matters run there course. Any ideas how long the process can be drug on after the judgement has been handed down?
 
Unregistered said:
Already have done that, thanks. Just have to let the legal matters run there course. Any ideas how long the process can be drug on after the judgement has been handed down?
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oops, wrong "their". Sorry, that is a pet peeve of mine.
 
Unregistered said:
Already have done that, thanks. Just have to let the legal matters run there course. Any ideas how long the process can be drug on after the judgement has been handed down?
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You mentioned he was not keeping up on his business remaining a legal entity. That's a link I'd look into. If for some reason the entity (corporation, LLC or whatever) has been dissolved, that could make him liable for any debts incurred. If he failed to provide any annually required re-registration, he could be challenged with the intent to remain a corporation and his right to use that as a wall of defense against personal assets.
 
Personally, it's a bear trying to analyze the quality (and quantity) of training a student receives. I've talked to a number of students and just licensed PPLs and come away with a "WTF" is that instructor doing. Then I recall MY days as a student. While the training went in, I didn't always KNOW it as "STEEP TURNS", "VFR FLIGHT FOLLOWING", etc. In my training, I just did it and am fairly happy with the results (I did get my license!).
In most cases, I've met their instructors and may have actually used them in my training. After meeting them, I've come away with a better understanding that the appropriate topics were covered even if the student doesn't realize it. (How many times have you stumbled over something and said "Yeah, I know that.")
For that end of it, to be sure the proper signoffs are or are not there, you'd need the records.
As to safety issues, call it in. If you're uncomfortable being identified because of the money issue, get someone else to do it. I'm sure you have contacts (the FBO, mechanic, FSDO, other concerned pilots) who'd do it for you.
 
silver-eagle said:
As to safety issues, call it in. If you're uncomfortable being identified because of the money issue, get someone else to do it. I'm sure you have contacts (the FBO, mechanic, FSDO, other concerned pilots) who'd do it for you.
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The best person for that is your local FAA Safety Team Representative (what used to be an "Aviation Safety Counselor"). If you don't know who that is at your airport, call the FSDO and ask the FAASTeam Manager (which you can do without giving your name).
 
First, the Safety Councelor to straighten out the important stuff. Then if it's a lot of your money, find a lawyer. If you can live without the money, just wash your hands of it all. It's only money. Anyone can flush huge wads of cash down the toilet in aviation; your way is only slightly different than most. B)
 
Well, while I did not go to the FSDO yet on this problem, I did meet with and help guide the previous student to another set of instructors who gave him very good instruction, signed off evrything he needed, and made sure he knew all of the required information, even beyond what was necessary. He passed his checkride with flying colors, even got complemented on his abilities from the examiner, and went out and purchased an airplane with which he is extremely happy. He looks back on his days with the previous instructor and is happy he quit with him and pursued the instruction elsewhere.

So far the previous instructor has had no other students, and I am sure his CFI certificate is soon to expire. His flying club is faltering under his leadership. I am sure it will not take long until all members have left. No one seems willing to enter into an agreement with him for a new membership. The airplane flies very little anymore, maybe once evry 2-3 months, and always by him. He is about to be evicted from the field for non-payment of tie-down fees. He was already evicted from the hangar for the same reason.

I have not yet gotten my money back, but am a lot closer than I was. Sheriff sale is ready, all I need to do is initiate it. I have had some response from him as to getting paid back, so I will be a little more patient and see what happens.

If I see he is teaching again, I believe it would be prudent to go to the FSDO and report him. I don't want to see another student go through what the last one did.
 
Listen. This is about money. You said so yourself. The FSDO will NOT get you your $$s back.

Just walk. He'll cook himself.
 
Go to the FSDO, but first, tell him you might change your mind about that if you get your money back. ;)

It's not really blackmail if he pays up and you drop dime on him to the FAA anyway...:D

Seriously, if you have to choose between the money and clipping this guy's wings (not that you have to choose), the latter is more important, IMHO.
 
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