A&P hourly wage.

What a number of people fail to understand is A&P employment opportunities are controlled by a wide variety of influences. There is no one guide to follow for availability, wages, abilities, or quality. It varies so much that on one side of the spectrum there are dozens of A&P openings and on the other side there are dozens of A&Ps who can’t find a job.

The main qualifier is location with experience level and operation type a close 2nd and 3rd. Just because you have an A&P doesn’t guarantee you a job anywhere and everywhere.

But I think the next 3-5 years will bring this discussion to a head. A large group of A&Ps will be hitting 65 with a majority at the commercial level. However, it is yet to be seen if this shift will create opportunities that will drain experienced talent from the Part 91 side of the house. Had I not retired early I would be in the middle of this with my peers.

As to the subpar side of the house, its real and does happen. Where it really has an effect is when an "experienced" A&P fills up an entry level position preventing a new A&P an opportunity to entire the workforce.
 
MauleSkinner said:
yup… “**** you” is a good way to get more mechanics into GA.
Click to expand...
The funny thing is he's clueless how the system works. All maintenance starts with the owner and ends with the owner. The only one who needs to cope harder is the owner. The 2nd funny thing is he needs mechanics more than mechanics need him. Too much.:rolleyes:
 
MauleSkinner said:
And its not just that A&Ps don’t make enough…they don’t make enough because if you paid GA mechanics enough, GA pilots are cheap enough that the demand would fall, and you’d have a surplus.
Click to expand...
Too true. If I had to pay $3500+ annuals, plus wait months for service work. I would not be in the hobby. Or at least I would move over to EAB. I could afford it but the juice would not be worth the squeeze.
 
Last edited:
Morgan3820 said:
I could afford it but the juice would not be worth the squeeze.
Click to expand...
Bingo, which is the gist of my position. Calling someone cheap over that value judgement, is what I push back on.

And I can afford it, and I'm still going EAB.
 
I don’t believe many owners have an issue with paying the big bucks for a

definite skill, such as cylinders, magnetos, etc.

They do have problems when the big bucks are going for opening panels and

running vacuum cleaners though.

Owner assist can work well in some situation’s
 
Last edited:
I wish EAB had a non-weird light twin with strong useful load in the 200kt class that could be had in the 150k range. I'd flip in a heartbeat. The recent Velocity Twin situation threw some ice water on my ardor for that plane.

I keep seeing little Vans RVs in the 100k+ range and think the economic advantages are getting baked into EAB kit and plane pricing. To keep it on this thread -- the harder it is to get IA/A&P services, the more valuable that Repairman Certificate will be for the builder, and the more valuable to just roll your own squawk fixes.
 
Bell206 said:
The 2nd funny thing is he needs mechanics more than mechanics need him. Too much.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
There are some professions where that is true. Mine, for example. If you have a serious illness, you need me way more than I need you. And when I say need, I mean it in the most existential way possible. But - I would be out of business if it weren't for my patients. It's a symbiotic relationship. So here's a toast to drinking, smoking, eating Big Macs, and not exercising. :p

What does one lose, exactly, if he or she (or "they") decides that the cost of the A&P is unacceptable? They can't play with their toy. That's it. They move on to a different toy and the GA-focused A&P learns real quick just how much he is needed in the grand scheme of things.

What irritates me is that A&Ps and IAs are even legally required in the first place. That is not to disparage their training and skill. However, some of us have a mechanical background and are capable of competently performing many maintenance and repair tasks on our own. On a vehicle or a vessel, doing so is totally acceptable. Why not a light GA aircraft? In our aging fleet, this is a disservice to our aircraft more than anything. How many minor squawks get deferred or neglected due to the hassle of the appointment, the downtime, the expense? Or not recorded in a log because (gasp) a magical hangar fairy disappeared the problem?
schmookeeg said:
I wish EAB had a non-weird light twin with strong useful load in the 200kt class...
Click to expand...
Let's design one! Amazing again that the FAA says anyone can design and build their own aircraft and have it be certified airworthy under an E-AB cert, but that same person who built a plane from scratch is not allowed to do so much as splice a wire in their Part 23 a/c without the blessing of an A&P.
 
traumamed said:
... However, some of us have a mechanical background and are capable of competently performing many maintenance and repair tasks on our own. On a vehicle or a vessel, doing so is totally acceptable. Why not a light GA aircraft? In our aging fleet, this is a disservice to our aircraft more than anything. How many minor squawks get deferred or neglected due to the hassle of the appointment, the downtime, the expense? Or not recorded in a log because (gasp) a magical hangar fairy disappeared the problem?
.
Click to expand...

I am not an IA or A&P

Some of the wrenching we can do on our cars doesn't have the same criticality as for the airplane. Oil filter loose on the car? no big deal... pull over and put some more oil in and tighten that filter when you get a chance.

How many people know the difference between structural rivets and regular rivets? How many backyard mechanics would pay attention to the need for structural screws for the cherokee tanks?

The people who would defer maintenance (or make it magically disappear) would be people I'd suspect of not properly doing their own maintenance.

Would we really want a website devoted to "there I fixed it" on airplanes? There are enough scary repairs done in the home (failure to properly install plumbing fittings, using a gas valve on a water pipe, using the 14 gauge wire on a 20 amp circuit...)
 
Bob Noel said:
I am not an IA or A&P

Some of the wrenching we can do on our cars doesn't have the same criticality as for the airplane. Oil filter loose on the car? no big deal... pull over and put some more oil in and tighten that filter when you get a chance.

How many people know the difference between structural rivets and regular rivets? How many backyard mechanics would pay attention to the need for structural screws for the cherokee tanks?

The people who would defer maintenance (or make it magically disappear) would be people I'd suspect of not properly doing their own maintenance.

Would we really want a website devoted to "there I fixed it" on airplanes? There are enough scary repairs done in the home (failure to properly install plumbing fittings, using a gas valve on a water pipe, using the 14 gauge wire on a 20 amp circuit...)
Click to expand...
I respectfully disagree, on multiple counts.

1. A lot of the wrenching people do on cars most certainly does have the same criticality as aircraft maintenance. Mess up your brake lines and you might be dead. Mess up your wheel hub, or even just your lug nuts, and you might be dead. Pretty high-consequence scenarios for both you and the cars around you if you cannot stop or a wheel flies off at 70mph.

2. Oil filter is a very bad example, as that is one of the few things we *can* work on as private pilots. I've never had one fall off one of my cars, boats - or planes. And yes I of course use safety wire on the plane.

3. A 172 or PA28 is not the space shuttle. There are things unique to the machine, but at their core, they are fairly simple machines. Newish cars are far more complex than a 70s-era spam can.

4. Citing examples of incompetent maintenance practices in any arena is an argument against whether "lay folks" should have the right to work on anything at all. It has little bearing on aviation specifically.
 
traumamed said:
It's a symbiotic relationship.
Click to expand...
At least you understand that. My comment above was directed specifically to one person who doesn’t have a clue on that part. And doubtful he’ll ever learn that.
traumamed said:
What irritates me is that A&Ps and IAs are even legally required in the first place.
Click to expand...
I guess it depends on your point of view. It irritates me that after waiting weeks or months to see my cardiologist, his very capable LPNs and NP do all the heavy lifting only for him to pop in, shake my hand, crack a bad joke and charge me $500 for the pleasure. So I feel your pain.

But in my view, its simply because we both have to follow certain rules. In my case, 80%+ of those rules are the direct result of international conventions and agreements. Without those international agreements no aviation product or article could leave the US without complying with the certifications of every country it was sent or flown to. So its a global legal requirement for A&Ps and IAs and not a local one. Its also the reason you personally can design, fly, and fix an E/AB, as amateur-built aircraft are not included in those international conventions and require recertification in every country it goes to.
traumamed said:
How many minor squawks get deferred or neglected due to the hassle of the appointment, the downtime, the expense?
Click to expand...
Then you would be violating the rules if you did fly. But it begs to ask, how many of the preventative maintenance items listed in Part 43 Appdx A(c) do you perform on a regular basis? And have you ever looked for an A&P who will work owner-assisted? You may be surprised how much work you can perform and sign off right now.

As to hangar-fairies, I’ve personally been hit by their work. So in my book public hanging is usually the 1st thing I think of. You have to remember aviation is a “closed-system” that starts at Block 6 on your AWC and remains closed up to the last day the aircraft flies. Its basis is only the integrity of the people who use that system. Unfortunately there are a lot of people who lack that quality.

Regardless, there are ways to change that system. It almost succeeded with the Primary Non-Commercial category. However, half the reason it failed was it used the wrong premise/route to get it passed and the other half was lack of support from the masses. So if you want to change the system get the support from your fellow 30K owners and change it. Simple. They did in Canada. Or simply design, build, maintain, and fly an E/AB to your hearts content free of any oversight.
 
Last edited:
traumamed said:
What irritates me is that A&Ps and IAs are even legally required in the first place. That is not to disparage their training and skill. However, some of us have a mechanical background and are capable of competently performing many maintenance and repair tasks on our own. On a vehicle or a vessel, doing so is totally acceptable. Why not a light GA aircraft? In our aging fleet, this is a disservice to our aircraft more than anything. How many minor squawks get deferred or neglected due to the hassle of the appointment, the downtime, the expense? Or not recorded in a log because (gasp) a magical hangar fairy disappeared the problem?
Click to expand...
Yes, some of us do have a mechanical background and are capable of competently performing many maintenance and repair tasks. That’s why we run across airplanes with slag arc welded into the back of pistons and then drilled out to balance the engine, flaps cut shorter and ailerons extended, and a bent metal tab screwed onto the trim tab on a rudder rather than adjusting the trim tab.

Consider that there was a time A&Ps we’re not required, and it was a big enough problem that they were deemed necessary.
 
This thread is like one guy trying to ride a teeter totter solo...sorry but A&P work is a business...supply/demand works for both sides of employer/employee AS WELL AS employer/customer. Getting mad about it, or arguing for one without the other is ridiculous.
 
Bob Noel said:
How many people know the difference between structural rivets and regular rivets? How many backyard mechanics would pay attention to the need for structural screws for the cherokee tanks?
Click to expand...

Check the repair on this airplane. About 24:50 point.

 
Maybe the folks that say they can do as well as an A & P should pursue that certification?

There are people that have their aircraft and get extensively involved with the maintenance.

An ER Anesthiologist, Cardiac Surgeon, ER Head Nurse , EMT and a Nurse/ midwife are

some med folks slowly pursuing the ticket that I’m involved with at this time.

The people discussing $$ may not realize the ability to call when your kid is sick

at 3 am is priceless!

People I work with know they have to sign the task before my “ under the supervision of” signature.

It works with the ones that want the procedure to go well and are willing to invest the time.

Multiple phone calls and cell pix are very helpful in keeping things going efficiently.
 
Individual A&P/IA’s at my airport charge $85-$100 per hour depending on the situation. Most of us are pretty generous in regards to the actual time charged to private owners. Callouts typically run about $250 minimum. No one’s getting rich around here!
 
aterry1067 said:
I saw an advertised posting in a shop near me looking for A&Ps starting at $27 an hour, considerably less for a mechanic without a cert. The shop rate is over $125 an hour.

This is in a major metropolitan area with a high cost of living.
Click to expand...
It's not just aviation. The auto shops are doing that too. It used to be 50%/ billed hour, now it's ~$18- $20/hr, for auto mechanic with certifications, and and less without. If I decide to change shops, I'll just retire and do a few jobs at home part time.
 
Doc Holliday said:
That statement I made is very true. Supply and demand. Throw in the subpar and it affects everyone, in multiple ways.
Click to expand...
Maybe where you are, but on the field where I am based, there is one maintenance shop, one part 141 school, and one engine shop. They are all looking to hire an A&P and have been for most of the year.
 
Kristin said:
Maybe where you are, but on the field where I am based, there is one maintenance shop, one part 141 school, and one engine shop. They are all looking to hire an A&P and have been for most of the year.
Click to expand...
Desirability of location plays a huge part as well.
 
traumamed said:
What irritates me is that A&Ps and IAs are even legally required in the first place. That is not to disparage their training and skill. However, some of us have a mechanical background and are capable of competently performing many maintenance and repair tasks on our own. On a vehicle or a vessel, doing so is totally acceptable. Why not a light GA aircraft? In our aging fleet, this is a disservice to our aircraft more than anything. How many minor squawks get deferred or neglected due to the hassle of the appointment, the downtime, the expense? Or not recorded in a log because (gasp) a magical hangar fairy disappeared the problem?
Click to expand...
I see a lot of owner maintenance. Some is of good quality. Lots are not. Training and experience counts for a lot.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Desirability of location plays a huge part as well.
Click to expand...
Based on the various advertisements for A&P's and in talking to other shops around the country, I have yet to identify a location that is so desirable that it has enough A&P's. Do you know of any?
 
Kristin said:
Based on the various advertisements for A&P's and in talking to other shops around the country, I have yet to identify a location that is so desirable that it has enough A&P's. Do you know of any?
Click to expand...
Anyplace other than Minnesota.
 
Kristin said:
Based on the various advertisements for A&P's and in talking to other shops around the country, I have yet to identify a location that is so desirable that it has enough A&P's. Do you know of any?
Click to expand...


I can’t quantify it, but I haven’t seen much of a problem here in central Florida. With a little networking, I’ve been able to find A&P-IAs. It helps some that I assist, so they don’t have to waste their time (and my money!) removing panels and interiors or changing filters or whatever.
 
Half Fast said:
I can’t quantify it, but I haven’t seen much of a problem here in central Florida. With a little networking, I’ve been able to find A&P-IAs. It helps some that I assist, so they don’t have to waste their time (and my money!) removing panels and interiors or changing filters or whatever.
Click to expand...
Free-lancing IA's seem to be somewhat more available than journeymen A&P's willing to go to work for the average GA maintenance shop.
 
Is that “ skimming the cream?”
 
I probably work at the 2nd best general aviation job. We currently make $41 an hour. The other guys are clearing $50.
 
traumamed said:
I respectfully disagree, on multiple counts.

1. A lot of the wrenching people do on cars most certainly does have the same criticality as aircraft maintenance. Mess up your brake lines and you might be dead. Mess up your wheel hub, or even just your lug nuts, and you might be dead. Pretty high-consequence scenarios for both you and the cars around you if you cannot stop or a wheel flies off at 70mph.

2. Oil filter is a very bad example, as that is one of the few things we *can* work on as private pilots. I've never had one fall off one of my cars, boats - or planes. And yes I of course use safety wire on the plane.

3. A 172 or PA28 is not the space shuttle. There are things unique to the machine, but at their core, they are fairly simple machines. Newish cars are far more complex than a 70s-era spam can.

4. Citing examples of incompetent maintenance practices in any arena is an argument against whether "lay folks" should have the right to work on anything at all. It has little bearing on aviation specifically.
Click to expand...
It really depends on a number of things. Owners can realistically do 80% of the things on a 172 or PA28 themselves. Will it help to have an experienced person there? Sure but once you've done it once it's easier.

It's specifically big ticket items where this matters. And in that case it has nothing to do with a certificate and everything to do with professional experience, facilities, and quality standards. I'm an IA, I can't do a firewall repair, you're gonna have to go to a tooled up shop where guys have done it tons of times. If you can do it in a T hangar you don't need an A&P for most stuff if you have a manual.

It's there for job security really, and even then repair stations can sidestep it so it's not very effective. IAs want to just advise owners and do an inspection for money while someone else does all the work. It's usually an old guy and if he hasn't really worked in an intensive shop on your airframe/engine he's likely not any better than an engaged and smart owner. I've seen both good and bad.

Both sides make valid points in here, A&Ps don't have the demand that car mechanics or nurses/doctors do. That's why you see so few doing it full time, which on the flip side also makes it harder to find a mechanic, and all the moreso one who is going to provide you with true value. Oh and the cost of parts does not help. I'd wager the cost of parts is much more of a problem than the cost of labor.
 
So; WHO is more dangerous?

Would it be be the Med wrenching on an airplane or the Tech in hospital?

Most of the time a Med- stake takes out 1 person.

Might not be the same on an aircraft.

Re-read #57.
 
Magman said:
So; WHO is more dangerous?

Would it be be the Med wrenching on an airplane or the Tech in hospital?

Most of the time a Med- stake takes out 1 person.

Might not be the same on an aircraft.

Re-read #57.
Click to expand...
I think the argument is moreso that I literally need that ER employee to live, if the ER employee cannot get their plane inspected, they are out a nice weekend trip.

But I think it's kind of departed from the original conversation. Mechanic pay is not that high...it's often less than an auto shop. The problem is that planes are more expensive. Majority of the costs are just due to the fact that planes are not as reliable as cars, regulations, parts costs, and just fleet age. People are just more willing to walk away from their aircraft because they don't need it daily for work, which is understandable. Highest GA bill I've personally seen was a 182 and it was a bit over 70k. Not much of that was labor. Now my company had a Chancellor and that got a bill for like 150k, which was hilarious. And I doubt much of it was labor. You don't see people running engines to 4k TSMOH because of the labor to change it, it's because of the obscene overhaul costs (and every overhaul shop will say they can't get parts and their margins are razor thin).
 
Last edited:
Kesk said:
It really depends on a number of things. Owners can realistically do 80% of the things on a 172 or PA28 themselves. Will it help to have an experienced person there? Sure but once you've done it once it's easier.

It's specifically big ticket items where this matters. And in that case it has nothing to do with a certificate and everything to do with professional experience, facilities, and quality standards. I'm an IA, I can't do a firewall repair, you're gonna have to go to a tooled up shop where guys have done it tons of times. If you can do it in a T hangar you don't need an A&P for most stuff if you have a manual.

It's there for job security really, and even then repair stations can sidestep it so it's not very effective. IAs want to just advise owners and do an inspection for money while someone else does all the work. It's usually an old guy and if he hasn't really worked in an intensive shop on your airframe/engine he's likely not any better than an engaged and smart owner. I've seen both good and bad.

Both sides make valid points in here, A&Ps don't have the demand that car mechanics or nurses/doctors do. That's why you see so few doing it full time, which on the flip side also makes it harder to find a mechanic, and all the moreso one who is going to provide you with true value. Oh and the cost of parts does not help. I'd wager the cost of parts is much more of a problem than the cost of labor.
Click to expand...
How many techs are graduating from schools? Probably not enough to fill the demand.

It's not just aircraft techs. I was in auto repair for 30+ years. Had to hang it up right in the middle of all the covid shutdowns, my body is telling me it has had enough. Felt bad cause it left the owner hanging. Visited a week ago, they still haven't found a suitable replacement 2 years later. Both new hires they tried went out on disability within a month. My point is younger folks aren't interested in putting the time and money into an education or for that matter even showing up for work on time. Shops here are all looking for experienced help, few are available. Lack of motivation is a general issue today.
 
Don’t paint ALL with the same brush!

Adults point kids into futures that they have little chance

to succeed or for non- existent jobs.

“ The system“ has pushed way too many kids into dead end college

rather than CTE/ Vo - Tech training which often has been used

as a dumping ground.
 
fast99 said:
How many techs are graduating from schools? Probably not enough to fill the demand.

It's not just aircraft techs. I was in auto repair for 30+ years. Had to hang it up right in the middle of all the covid shutdowns, my body is telling me it has had enough. Felt bad cause it left the owner hanging. Visited a week ago, they still haven't found a suitable replacement 2 years later. Both new hires they tried went out on disability within a month. My point is younger folks aren't interested in putting the time and money into an education or for that matter even showing up for work on time. Shops here are all looking for experienced help, few are available. Lack of motivation is a general issue today.
Click to expand...
You're better off getting a bachelor's degree or higher, or just going into a more unionized trade like electrical, plumbing, etc.

Yes, airline mechanics and those at cargo companies can make a ton of money, but you are effectively working overnights for your whole career. Highest paid hourly GA mechanics I know of are at the USAFA and make over $50 an hour. That's about as good as it gets and it's likely less than 30 guys. I went to A&P school and also got an AS that transfers to computer science, still trying to get a promotion where I could finish that up. Point is I've seen a bit of both worlds. If you don't go the training or military route an A&P will cost you almost as much as a BA/BS. The latter gives you a much better career outlook.

I make good money as a GA mechanic, but there's very few of us. We also can't find good people right now even though we had like 6 very good employees join a few years ago. The fact that people are truly retiring (people have been saying boomers are retiring and jobs are abundant for decades) is exactly why mechanic pay is finally going up. You're likely only going to see the trend continue. I believe in a mechanic shortage as much as I believe in a pilot shortage. Keep hearing it, seems like it's more of a pay shortage for those qualified and a money shortage for would-be pilots getting reamed by hourly rates.
 
Kesk said:
I believe in a mechanic shortage as much as I believe in a pilot shortage. Keep hearing it, seems like it's more of a pay shortage for those qualified
Click to expand...
Except you need to put the mechanic shortage into context as it comes in two flavors: experience related and age related. The shortage discussed over the past 15-20 years has been basically experience related.

However, the discussion has shifted to age related causes as over 40% of the currently employed… and experienced mechanics are over 60 years of age. So in some locations and shops not only will they lose manpower but the experience as well.

Regardless, the one point I’ve personally seen that adds to the shortage is simply the lack of desire to get into aviation or simply the desire to relocate to where the good paying jobs are located. These same issues that are being seen in the other manual trades regardless of the potential wage to be made.

Kesk said:
Highest paid hourly GA mechanics I know of are at the USAFA and make over $50 an hour. That's about as good as it gets and it's likely less than 30 guys.
Click to expand...
Assuming your reference to GA is the Part 91 private owner side, I agree those private GA pay scales are less depending on region. However, the remaining GA market is expanding and drawing in a larger portion of the available A&Ps at decent wages. Same with the Part 145 market.

And as mentioned on another thread that pay can be substantially increased by location provided you have the necessary experience and the desire to move.
 
And Signature shut down their Cirus service center at our FBO....no maintenance anymore on anything. But they did price themselves outta bidness. ;)
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
And Signature shut down their Cirus service center at our FBO....no maintenance anymore on anything. But they did price themselves outta bidness. ;)
Click to expand...
Or there are a lot of cheap owners on the field? Glad they got the better side of the deal.:rolleyes:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top