A&P certificate for future business owner?

[PFS]

Greetings community,

It's been a while since I've posted on an aviation forum and I don't know if this one even existed back when I started but it seems to be pretty active now and I've appreciated reading some of the threads lately. I'm a captain for a major airline and work has been really slow for me lately due to aircraft deliveries and the number of guys being trained (I can't hold a line so lots of reserve at home). Not complaining but I've been having an itch to get back into GA and I like some of the innovations I'm seeing with GA aircraft.

I'm thinking about eventually starting a company that operates at a small airport and does a little bit of everything with perhaps a specialty in a popular type of aircraft, engine brand, and/or avionics. It would be flight instructing, maintenance, maybe surveys, perhaps 135 on demand. However, I don't think now is a great time to start a business, I think that the industry is sort of at an inflection point and the type of market/industry reset that comes every 10-20 years is right around the corner. So I intend to wait a couple years before starting the flight service company that I have in mind. I have a lot of instructing experience and I've turned plenty of wrenches but not on aircraft. A local community college is offering the A&P training for about 20k. I could try to get my A&P while I wait for the industry to be at more forgiving time to get into the business.

I know if I ran this type of business while also having a full time job, it would be all about hiring great people that I trust. However, I can't help thinking being able to help out in the shop when needed or at least know what the mechanics are talking about would be helpful. (Obviously it would be a decent investment in myself purely as a professional to boot.)

What are your thoughts on the value of having the certificate as the owner of a startup like this?

Thank you

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Well....lots of folks have made a fortune doing that.

 

[JOhnH]

Well....lots of folks have made a fortune doing that.

Yeah, a small fortune, after investing a large fortune to get started.

 

[JOhnH]

Yeah, a small fortune, after investing a large fortune to get started.

Seriously, if you want to do this because you need something to do, and you don't expect to make a profit, it could be fun. But you would certainly be a Unicorn if you turned a profit.

 

[mondtster]

Much of the success of a business like you are proposing is dependent on where you try to start it. Where I'm at in the north central US, the only way to make a business like that work is if the owner can do it all, and they're reasonably good at everything. I've worked for those guys, and later was that guy.

One of the local FBO owners is trying to work a full time job while hiring everything done, much like you're proposing. The only thing he seems to be successful at doing is making customers mad by having inadequate staffing.

 

[FPK1]

You are the second commercial airplane pilot I've heard say doesn't work (fly) much... Yet all we hear nowadays is there are not enough pilots!

How can that be? So why are some of you guys not working full-time?

 

[schmookeeg]

If there was an ordered list of "things to do in pursuit of financial suicide", GA A&P would be below opening a restaurant, but not far enough below.

Price insurance for an A&P doing outside work. Last time I did it, it was $13K for 100k in gross labor revenue annually.

I found A&P gratifying to obtain, but I work quite diligently to avoid doing it for others, as the liability is both infinite and permanent. Your situation might be more conducive to it.

 

[PFS]

Yeah, a small fortune, after investing a large fortune to get started.

The numbers are the numbers. And that's why I'm not going to do it right now. I'm not going to buy a plane until I see the planes I want at prices that make my jaw drop. If the next recession has actually already started then I will wait until what I think is the bottom in the aircraft market. If this isn't the "next recession" then I'll wait further. I'm talking when the fed has to go back to zero interest rates and employees are easy to come by. That's totally not the picture right now but things have always swung back and forth since I've been an adult and paid attention to these things. When it's the right time I'll start small and build from there. I'm familiar with the onerous 135 regulations and the insurance picture and I've had success with other investments/endeavors, so I won't do it unless the combination of personal satisfaction, estimated profitability and risk are where I want them. I do think there are niches in the industry that could be filled even right now, but I want the picture to improve significantly.

You are the second commercial airplane pilot I've heard say doesn't work (fly) much... Yet all we hear nowadays is there are not enough pilots!

How can that be? So why are some of you guys not working full-time?

I am full time. Just on reserve and not getting called. It's feast or famine depending on when new aircraft/trainees arrive. Our other fleets are a completely different story. But I'm on a new fleet and that is rapidly growing. Also, due the current unreliability of the fleet (fun stuff), they are not flying it to it's capacity schedule-wise. They have to give the flying to the newly trained pilots to get their consolidation and off high minimums. I also don't think we have a "pilot shortage". There are plenty of ATP's out there. There are many that prefer other careers due to what is involved in being an airline pilot. If you use true inflation, we are making less than half airline pilots were making in the 90's before 9/11. Not complaining and I realize this has happened everywhere as the 0.1% has grabbed up more than there share from employees in all industries but I think a lot of people got into this for the $ and some of them are smarter than me and were able to make more elsewhere (finance, IT, etc). All that being said, the pay situation is rapidly changing for the better across the industry especially at the regional level.

 

[PFS]

If there was an ordered list of "things to do in pursuit of financial suicide", GA A&P would be below opening a restaurant, but not far enough below.

Price insurance for an A&P doing outside work. Last time I did it, it was $13K for 100k in gross labor revenue annually.

I found A&P gratifying to obtain, but I work quite diligently to avoid doing it for others, as the liability is both infinite and permanent. Your situation might be more conducive to it.

How much liability coverage was that?

 

[schmookeeg]

How much liability coverage was that?

I'd need to look. I think it was 2 or 3MM liability/product completions with an assortment of oddball things like libel and defamation and like 7 other minor lines of insurance. I can fish out our old shop policy if you'd like and send it over.

They're not great in a claim either, quite disappointing really. Flight insurance is WAY nicer and more proactive. Shop insurance obstructs and needs harassment to derive use of. Maybe it was just our carrier, but there weren't a lot of them bidding as I recall, and ours got us sued by a customer because we thought they were handling things for us -- newppp.

 

[Bell206]

I could try to get my A&P while I wait for the industry to be at more forgiving time to get into the business.

Having an A&P can definitely open some doors. However, keep in mind that a Part 147 school like your local CC offers does have attendance requirements which usually revolve around 5 day a week schedule and mainly days. May want to check into that with current work requirements.

 

[PFS]

I'd need to look. I think it was 2 or 3MM liability/product completions with an assortment of oddball things like libel and defamation and like 7 other minor lines of insurance. I can fish out our old shop policy if you'd like and send it over.

They're not great in a claim either, quite disappointing really. Flight insurance is WAY nicer and more proactive. Shop insurance obstructs and needs harassment to derive use of. Maybe it was just our carrier, but there weren't a lot of them bidding as I recall, and ours got us sued by a customer because we thought they were handling things for us -- newppp.

I've seen other threads on here and elsewhere about liability and insurance.. I'd hate not doing it out of fear but sometimes it's just too risky. I also saw that insurance rates are up about 40% right now. No wonder there aren't enough mechanics right now. 2/3 mil isn't bad. I guess my personal liability coverage would have to match whatever my current financial situation/future earnings look like. I'm definitely aware of the risk. One thing I was wondering about, if I help work on a job but I'm not the lead technician/IA and not the one that signs it off, how much personal liability would I have specific to a repair (let's say the shop had good practices and there were qualified employees but something went wrong)? I'm not trying to pass the blame off but the reality would be that I would be a guy with an A&P and not a ton of experience and the other mechanics would be in charge.

 

[PFS]

Having an A&P can definitely open some doors. However, keep in mind that a Part 147 school like your local CC offers does have attendance requirements which usually revolve around 5 day a week schedule and mainly days. May want to check into that with current work requirements.

Thank you. Ya, they start off with 4 days a week for the first two semesters. 5 hour days and 80% attendance required. I could definitely make that work to get the General sections out of the way. Goes to 5 days a week after that. Most on-call weeks at work are 4 days and we usually don't get called on the first day on my plane. If I can have the work days Th-Sun then I probably make it to 80% without too much of an issue even with the 5 day class schedule. I also live in base so that helps and can always use some PTO if starts getting tight with attendance.

 

[Tools]

I would consider simply apprenticing in your own shop after it’s started. Perhaps apprenticing elsewhere until you start it.

30 months get paid (albeit pittance) vs shelling out pretty good money. If you’ve wrenched a bunch of years, the school is gonna be pretty boring….

 

[PFS]

I would consider simply apprenticing in your own shop after it’s started. Perhaps apprenticing elsewhere until you start it.

30 months get paid (albeit pittance) vs shelling out pretty good money. If you’ve wrenched a bunch of years, the school is gonna be pretty boring….

That's funny. I was just doing some research on this. I could focus on whatever I can learn from the books for now and, like you said, help out in a shop. I'd even be willing to apprentice for free if there was a place that had a lot of flexibility and I could help some weeks and not others on my own schedule. I could put the money I would spend on school to work somehow and try to have a bigger business bank account when the time comes.. What's the liability like for an apprentice? Is there any?

 

[Tools]

Not really. They don’t sign anything off…

I employ several in a part 145 repair station. Total win/win scenarios.

I have been one as a volunteer in the Weeks Hangar for the EAA for years. Win/win.

 

[texasclouds]

Sounds like a fun venture…that you could fund with your major airline capn money. Keep the capn job, and keep yourself busy with the flight school/mechanics. But good luck finding a hard working, quality A/P I/A that wants to work for peanuts. If you hire a freshly graduated A/P, expect to have to babysit him.

 

[schmookeeg]

One thing I was wondering about, if I help work on a job but I'm not the lead technician/IA and not the one that signs it off, how much personal liability would I have specific to a repair (let's say the shop had good practices and there were qualified employees but something went wrong)? I'm not trying to pass the blame off but the reality would be that I would be a guy with an A&P and not a ton of experience and the other mechanics would be in charge.

I've thought about this scenario for myself (work for someone else's shop) -- I'd expect the shop insurance (assuming there was such in place) would cover all workers; Further if you were assisting on a job that someone else signed off, I would expect the lion's share of the blame to land on the signature. I'd feel pretty safe in such an arrangement.

I couldn't find the freelance A&P quote I received recently, but here was our shop policy decs in 2015. You can see all of the liabilities in their "canned" GA Shop policy. Product/Completions is the primary one ("you didn't fix it right"), and non-owned liability I thought was right behind it ("you broke it")



That was 8 years ago, I expect the rate is around double now, with limits remaining the same Conspicuously absent is workman's comp which is a whole other enchilada if you seek employees, and rather state-specific (this was California, so other states should have it better I'd think). The non-owned aircraft hull limit of 250K was actually somewhat light for the planes we worked on, with hulls up to about 1.2MM at the time. They were VERY resistant to us raising that limit, so that shows you where the pain/risk is.

We added flight test cover for another 3K/yr which matched the non-owned coverages for flight purposes.

Expensive game.

 

[PFS]

Not really. They don’t sign anything off…

I employ several in a part 145 repair station. Total win/win scenarios.

I have been one as a volunteer in the Weeks Hangar for the EAA for years. Win/win.

That sounds like fun. I'm going to have to start doing something like that

 

[PFS]

I've thought about this scenario for myself (work for someone else's shop) -- I'd expect the shop insurance (assuming there was such in place) would cover all workers; Further if you were assisting on a job that someone else signed off, I would expect the lion's share of the blame to land on the signature. I'd feel pretty safe in such an arrangement.

I couldn't find the freelance A&P quote I received recently, but here was our shop policy decs in 2015. You can see all of the liabilities in their "canned" GA Shop policy. Product/Completions is the primary one ("you didn't fix it right"), and non-owned liability I thought was right behind it ("you broke it")

View attachment 114067

That was 8 years ago, I expect the rate is around double now, with limits remaining the same Conspicuously absent is workman's comp which is a whole other enchilada if you seek employees, and rather state-specific (this was California, so other states should have it better I'd think). The non-owned aircraft hull limit of 250K was actually somewhat light for the planes we worked on, with hulls up to about 1.2MM at the time. They were VERY resistant to us raising that limit, so that shows you where the pain/risk is.

We added flight test cover for another 3K/yr which matched the non-owned coverages for flight purposes.

Expensive game.

Ouch. It is indeed. Thanks for sharing

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

maybe start your own youTube channel while yer doin all this.....and build up a subscriber base. Could mean serious $$$/mo.