A just wondering Secret Service question

mattaxelrod

mattaxelrod

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Messages
312
Location
Fanwood, NJ
Display Name
Display name:
Matt
I assume the President receives SS protection by law. And we often hear how the SS doesn't want the President to do X, Y, and Z because of security concerns.

But can the President, albeit with a fight, really do whatever he wants?

If the Prez wanted to fly a single engine plane solo (assuming he had a license), could the SS actually forbid him? By law? Theoretically, couldn't he just say, I'm the President, and I'm flying this plane. You are welcome to fly another plane and follow me.

How does that work?
 
I will let you know in January of '13. :D
 
mattaxelrod said:
I assume the President receives SS protection by law. And we often hear how the SS doesn't want the President to do X, Y, and Z because of security concerns.

But can the President, albeit with a fight, really do whatever he wants?

If the Prez wanted to fly a single engine plane solo (assuming he had a license), could the SS actually forbid him? By law? Theoretically, couldn't he just say, I'm the President, and I'm flying this plane. You are welcome to fly another plane and follow me.

How does that work?
Click to expand...

The practical answer, after the JFK assassination, is yes, the President can have activities forbidden by the USSS. There's a lot of negotiation that goes on and I'm not sure that the "practices" in place today have ever gon through complete constitutional scrutiny.
 
TMetzinger said:
The practical answer, after the JFK assassination, is yes, the President can have activities forbidden by the USSS. There's a lot of negotiation that goes on and I'm not sure that the "practices" in place today have ever gon through complete constitutional scrutiny.
Click to expand...

This is sort of what I'm getting at. How far would the SS take it?

Let's say the Prez just said, I'm going. I know you don't like it and don't want me to, but I am going over to that plane and flying it. (y'know, just to use my example)

Would they physically restrain the President??
 
Eisenhower was the first certificated pilot President. I don't know if he ever exercised his pilot privileges while in office, though. He did use an Aero Commander twin for a while (a 680 I think) as a sort of mini Air Force One.
 
Secret Service protection is authorized by law, not mandated. They still work for the Executive. He could throw them all out of the White House or even submit a budget to Congress proposing to defund them. The President can do anything he wants in private life (do they have that?)

What is more intriguing is what would happen if an authorized protectee not in the SS chain of command didn't want to get with the program. Oh they made a movie about that.
 
Last edited:
alaskaflyer said:
Secret Service protection is authorized by law, not mandated. They still work for the Executive. He could throw them all out of the White House or even submit a budget to Congress proposing to defund them. The President can do anything he wants in private life (do they have that?)
Click to expand...
That is a serious misperception of the situation. Tim's answer in post #3 is the most accurate of those above.
 
I remember when G-dub took AF1 into Iraq when things were still pretty hot. Wonder what the SS had to say about that visit?
 
alaskaflyer said:
What is more intriguing is what would happen if an authorized protectee not in the SS chain of command didn't want to get with the program. Oh they made a movie about that.
Click to expand...

You mean, like the Vice President?

Contrary to popular opinion, the VP has no authority over anything other than breaking ties in the Senate. Any "orders" he may issue to members of the Executive, in the absence of the procedures outlined in the 25th Amendment, are merely suggestions.
 
Ron Levy said:
That is a serious misperception of the situation. Tim's answer in post #3 is the most accurate of those above.
Click to expand...

So I ask again, would someone in the USSS take it upon themselves to physically restrain the President if he insisted on doing something they didn't want him to do?
 
I did a little google-fu and found that there are apparently statutes that require the president to accept USSS protection. This issue came up during recent lawsuits related to Executive Privilege:

Executive branch officials under presidents WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON and GEORGE W. BUSH have sought to limit dissemination of information through executive privilege, though these efforts were often unsuccessful. When Clinton was investigated by Independent Counsel KENNETH W. STARR about whether Clinton lied in a deposition regarding an affair with a former White House intern, Starr subpoenaed SECRET SERVICE agents to testify before a GRAND JURY about Clinton's actions. Several agents refused to testify. This forced Starr to file a motion in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia to compel their testimony. The agents asserted they were protected by a "protective function" privilege that allowed them to conceal what they observe in the protection of the president.

U.S. District Judge Norma Holloway Johnson declined to recognize the privilege, holding that there was no support for it in the U.S. Constitution, federal statute, or the COMMON LAW. Johnson cited federal statutes that require the president to accept Secret Service protection and require executive branch personnel, which includes Secret Service agents, to report criminal activity that they observe. The absence of a protective function privilege in those statutes suggested that Congress did not intend to create one. She rejected the argument that without the privilege, presidents would push away their protectors.​
Click to expand...

 
Matthew said:
I remember when G-dub took AF1 into Iraq when things were still pretty hot. Wonder what the SS had to say about that visit?
Click to expand...

"Certainly Mr. President. We will coordinate with all parties involved and make it happen. If you have a specific date in mind, please remember that due to the complex logistics and security issues, as you know from previous international trips, that [pick a time frame] would be best for your safety."
 
murphey said:
"Certainly Mr. President. We will coordinate with all parties involved and make it happen. If you have a specific date in mind, please remember that due to the complex logistics and security issues, as you know from previous international trips, that [pick a time frame] would be best for your safety."
Click to expand...

Where [pick a time frame]=Day after successor sworn in
 
mattaxelrod said:
So I ask again, would someone in the USSS take it upon themselves to physically restrain the President if he insisted on doing something they didn't want him to do?
Click to expand...

So far it hasn't come to that, and I don't think it ever will. The President is an office/function as well as a human being, and it would be an incredible reach for a President to say "I don't give a **** about the laws, this is what I want" rather than negotiating.

I believe Bush(2) flew in a fighter jet to deliver his "mission accomplished" thing without an agent on board the airplane.

I'd expect that if a president wanted to go fly a Skycatcher solo, the USSS would say "Sure, Mr. President, we've got a great space at (Edwards or Area 51 or...) and we'll be in the neighborhood with armed airplanes. They would NOT aggree to him holding at FISK for Airventure.
 
mattaxelrod said:
So I ask again, would someone in the USSS take it upon themselves to physically restrain the President if he insisted on doing something they didn't want him to do?
Click to expand...
That's a different question than you asked above, and to that one, I think the answer is that if the agents of the President Protection Detail saw the President about to do something which was unacceptably risky, they would do whatever it took to prevent harm from coming to the President. Of course, President GW Bush took the co-pilot seat on an S-3 Viking for a landing aboard a carrier, and that's pretty risky business, although I'm sure every possible precaution was taken to ensure a safe arrival. OTOH, if President Obama wanted to go bungee-jumping off the Washington Monument, I'm pretty sure they'd find a way to prevent it from happening.
 
TMetzinger said:
So far it hasn't come to that, and I don't think it ever will. The President is an office/function as well as a human being, and it would be an incredible reach for a President to say "I don't give a **** about the laws, this is what I want" rather than negotiating.
Click to expand...

You just summed up Clinton's entire presidency...
 
And it applies to Infosec, too. Remember that Obama wanted to use a crackberry once he took office, and an agency ended up having a "special" unit made for him.
 
Ron Levy said:
That is a serious misperception of the situation. Tim's answer in post #3 is the most accurate of those above.
Click to expand...

BS. Most of their authority springs from rulemaking. Rulemaking that could be undone if the Secretary directed it to be. And duties and responsibilities an agency imposes on itself or even that by Congressional law are subject to budget limitations.

I'll say it again that aside from political tools the agency possesses to make their case they have no authority over their protectees in the ways mentioned other than what is agreed to before hand. The rest of us? Oh yeah.
 
Last edited:
Ron Levy said:
Of course, President GW Bush took the co-pilot seat on an S-3 Viking for a landing aboard a carrier, and that's pretty risky business, although I'm sure every possible precaution was taken to ensure a safe arrival.
Click to expand...
I'm SURE the O-3. got a "A" security clearance for that one.
 
I would hope the President could overrule the secret service. We voted for him, not them. That is the only fact that gives me any glimmer of hope (and a slim one at that) that some of this VIP security theatre nonsense will be rolled back.
 
steingar said:
I would hope the President could overrule the secret service. We voted for him, not them. That is the only fact that gives me any glimmer of hope (and a slim one at that) that some of this VIP security theatre nonsense will be rolled back.
Click to expand...

Here's a start:

http://www.eaa.org/news/2011/2011-03-29_repeal.asp

I'll be on the horn to my Rep. Probably won't work, but at least I'll have the illusion of doing something.
 
Well, if the TFR over stadiums is really the result of Congressional political pork and ensuring their donors a profit, then you can bet that nothing WE say or do will change it - except to maybe force them to enlarge the TFR just to make a point...

denny-o
 
Matt this very thing happened to me. I had spoken to our president and was going to take him flying. Actually I was trying to sell him on taking lessons. ( this was about 1/2 way into his term) When the top honcho in his secuirty detail found out she rolled her eyes at him and said he couldn't go until college was paid for for their kids.

I don't think she physically restrained him but she let it know that he was going to comply. She then saw the head agent in my security detail at the Purim Carnival and asked her how she let me fly in those dangerous little planes and that being president of the synagogue was enough straign on their lives and she didn't need any more.
 
The wife of one of my airplane partners has never seen the airplane. The CFI with whom I've done my last two BFRs has never taken his wife flying, she won't go. It is not such an uncommon thing.
 
Ron Levy said:
IIRC, it was a LCDR, not a LT. And I'll bet his name was on the Tailhook Association's list of max trappers, too.
Click to expand...

According to Bush's book, he was also later killed in a training mishap. Goes to show you any place, any time, it can happen to the best of us.
 
AdamZ said:
Matt this very thing happened to me. I had spoken to our president and was going to take him flying. Actually I was trying to sell him on taking lessons. ( this was about 1/2 way into his term) When the top honcho in his secuirty detail found out she rolled her eyes at him and said he couldn't go until college was paid for for their kids.

I don't think she physically restrained him but she let it know that he was going to comply. She then saw the head agent in my security detail at the Purim Carnival and asked her how she let me fly in those dangerous little planes and that being president of the synagogue was enough straign on their lives and she didn't need any more.
Click to expand...

Ya know, I think I had to read through that 3 times just to figure out the whole thing. :goofy:
 
If he did fly his own plane his call sign would be Airforce One, even if he rented. No mater what aircraft, once the president is onboard it becomes Airforce One. Bush landed on a carrier.
 
Orville Wright said:
If he did fly his own plane his call sign would be Airforce One, even if he rented. No mater what aircraft, once the president is onboard it becomes Airforce One. Bush landed on a carrier.
Click to expand...

It would actually be most likely "Executive One."
 
When I was a police officer I took some training from the secret service on how to prepare for presidential and vice presidential visits, and how to work with the many different agencies involved with such a visit. They said that the president and vice president do not generally just wander off route. It isn't because of security, it is because of the problems that they can make for the place that they wander into. The Secret service said that it happens sometimes, but not often. They also said that especially the president likes everything scripted for political reasons. They do not like surprises. Any visit to a local establishment may appear to be off the cuff, but that it is usually planned for maximum media coverage. They are always campaigning.
 
Orville Wright said:
If he did fly his own plane his call sign would be Airforce One, even if he rented. No mater what aircraft, once the president is onboard it becomes Airforce One.
Click to expand...
Only in a USAF aircraft. When he's in the helicopter provided by the Marines, it's Marine One. When...
Bush landed on a carrier.
Click to expand...
...it was Navy One, and if he was ever in an Army aircraft, it would be Army One. As mentioned above, if he's in a civilian aircraft, it's Executive One.
 
Ron Levy said:
Only in a USAF aircraft. When he's in the helicopter provided by the Marines, it's Marine One. When...
...it was Navy One, and if he was ever in an Army aircraft, it would be Army One. As mentioned above, if he's in a civilian aircraft, it's Executive One.
Click to expand...
If he is in his Cadillac it is Cadi One, if he is in his Ford truck it is Tough One, and if he is in his Ferrari it is Fast One. :D
 
Trapper John said:
Given the VP's propensity for inserting his foot in his mouth, do the SS guys have to do anything special to check out his shoes and socks? :wink2:
Click to expand...

I like Biden as a VP. Pure comedy gold. He is a reminder for average people that these people are not special.
 
Or even especially intelligent...
What they are, are slick manipulators of people around them...

denny-o
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top