A couple of questions from a new PPL

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jcepiano

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jcepiano
Hey folks!

So I just was given my temporary airmen certificate on Friday and I made sure to plan my first passenger flight the very next day. I usually fly out of a somewhat busy Class D that's far away from any Class C or B airspace.

As my first flight I may have bitten off more than I could chew. I flew from my home airport to another Class D below the Class B finals corridor and surrounded by two Class C airports. Intense stuff! While I was definitely ready for the work load of the airspace, I was not ready for what FEW025 or SCT028 looked like in real life. I almost always flew to the north from my training airport and hadn't ventured south much or had seen clouds this low. This brought my Class E cloud separation from a vague number I memorized into reality.

I must admit, this was kind of scary at times. Turbulence increased near clouds (I was always 5-800ft away) and the ground was definitely getting closer sometimes. I made it through with some frayed nerves, but I wasn't sure if this was me just experiencing something completely new for the first time and freaking out or if I was actually an idiot and shouldn't have flown in this weather.

My questions are these:

- When you first got your license, did you feel like you were on edge because of going somewhere new that challenges your ability to juggle?
- Would you have gone flying with cloud layers this low? Is this something that I shouldn't be scared of?

Thanks in advance!
 
You are PIC. If you are not comfortable making the flight then don't do it.
 
After you fly in different conditions you'll have a good idea what works and what doesn't. If you're in a part of the country where it's generally flat, 2,500 scattered isn't much of a problem. If you're headed to the mountains then that's another story. In 10 years you will look back at a lot of lessons you learned the hard way. Situations you can't anticipate. I think everyone goes through the same process.
 
It sounds like you have not decided on your personal minimums. I shudder to think what your passenger was feeling seeing the panic on your face. Based on your OP, you were not a good ambassador on this flight.

Don't be in such a hurry to cut the umbilical from your CFI. Yes, you have a ticket, but it takes time to develop the judgment and skill (maturity) that comes with it.

Learn from the experience. Vow to do better next time. Fly safe.
 
Well, 2500' is MVFR. Note: Marginal VFR

I put emphasis on VFR because you are not doing anything illegal, just that you have not been exposed to much weather obviously in your training.

The risks you expose yourself to at these altitudes are terrain and obstacles. I personally have no problem flying that, but you will want to study up on what is on the ground. If it starts putting you closer to the ground or you feel you need to break the rules and scrape the clouds, turn around. remember there is IFR traffic that can come out of those clouds at any time.

How did you check the weather before takeoff?

What area are you flying in?
 
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2500 is no big deal if visibility is good. If it's not, then you are starting to flirt with unseen towers.
 
Hello and congrats!
I'm also a new pp, and I guess my answer would be that it depends on where you are. Here, there is nothing to hit and everywhere is a good landing site, so as long as I can keep vfr minimums I feel comfortable. That would change if I was going somewhere I wasn't familiar with.

+1 on establishing personal minimums. It really helps to have made the decision ahead of time when you want to go, your buddy wants to go, but the weather doesn't quite agree.
 
JasonM said:
Where do you live?
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Wichita
Ok ok, I shouldn't say absolutely nothing. But here's a blurry cell phone picture.

0b313d1f4a79bb3a4d7bf0138e4ad106.jpg
 
JasonM said:
Well, 2500' is MVFR. Note: Marginal VFR

I put emphasis on VFR because you are not doing anything illegal, just that you have not been exposed to much weather obviously in your training.
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:no:. FEW025 is not weather. SCT028 is nowhere near MVFR. OP needs to learn how to route around isolated clouds.
 
warthog1984 said:
:no:. FEW025 is not weather. SCT028 is nowhere near MVFR. OP needs to learn how to route around isolated clouds.
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That is true.. I have the vision of BKN/OVC. I often look at it the same and he should as well. FEW/SCT still has legal cloud separation requirements. I would not encourage a new pilot to just go on a XC with a forecast of FEW 800 SCT 1200 just because it is legal. Clouds still drop and he either needs to get above, be able to avoid or stay below.
 
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You have to set your own minimums,it depends on what you are comfortable with. The more you fly the more comfortable you should get. As the PIC the decision to fly is up too you.
 
jcepiano said:
............................., I was not ready for what FEW025 or SCT028 looked like in real life. ....................................

I must admit, this was kind of scary at times. Turbulence increased near clouds (I was always 5-800ft away) and the ground was definitely getting closer sometimes. I made it through with some frayed nerves, but I wasn't sure if this was me just experiencing something completely new for the first time and freaking out or if I was actually an idiot and shouldn't have flown in this weather.
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You did fine. I'll prob'ly get flamed for saying this but; when you're new you gotta' get out and push the limits a little or you'll never know where those limits are.
Anybody say's he's never been scared in an airplane is either a liar or else he hasn't flown much.
 
warthog1984 said:
:no:. FEW025 is not weather. SCT028 is nowhere near MVFR. OP needs to learn how to route around isolated clouds.
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Depends where the cloud is.

SCT means less than half the sky is covered at the reporting site. If you are in the wrong direction, it can be a lot more than half where you are.

Example: On a coastal flight, it's not unusual to see marine layer cover half an airport. That's SCT. Flying around VFR coast side of that is truly marginal, and if there is any terrain, can be extremely risky. SCT can also mean the sky is checker boarded. The risk there is that it can fill in quickly to BKN, so it may not be a good idea to overfly. Flying away from marine layer is usually hunky-dory as long as you have options to go around or return to the field.

Example #2: If I fly from Palo Alto to Oakland, and both are reporting SCT012, it's a good bet there is a cloud right in between them. And Class B has a floor at 1500, with a rather cold bay with two bridges below. Such clouds typically blast all the way out the Golden Gate (through the Class B surface area) and up against the eastern mountains. It's a no-go VFR, unless you go all the way around and approach Oakland from the north (which may not be possible either). Clearance through that part of Class B happens sometime after Hell freezes over. The SFO conga line goes right through it.

500 feet below cumulus means lots of cloud suck and a sucky ride. Remember, it's the rising air that makes the clouds. 500 feet below stratus is not a big deal unless there is IFR traffic popping out of it.

Just remember, legal minimums are not the same as personal minimums. In constrained airspace, sometimes the clouds go in the wrong place. Example: One isolated cloud 1/2 mile ahead of the threshold at 800 feet is FEW008. Legal VFR, but you will certainly need SVFR and your A game to get around it.

It's important to get your feet wet, but I'd suggest separating the airspace issues from weather issues, and try out the nasty airspace in severe clear.
 
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This normal. Anytime you are doing something for the first time in a plane, exercise caution. After getting my cert, I would do pattern work on marginal days to get an idea about what it meant to fly in it.

POA seems to be in a crabby mood lately especially with regard to new pilots asking questions.

What you experienced is normal.
Maybe make some more flights like this but solo and establish a min for yourself based on how your comfort level changes.

Good question
 
I am reading good advice here in the spirit of "you will get used to it". That weather was not anywhere near MVFR, it was great flying weather. If you are not comfortable with it yet, don't worry, it gets better. Just have fun in what you are comfortable with for now and it will come sooner or later. Once in class B, your cloud clearance will drop from 500-below to "clear of". That's so much more fun!
Once again, don't fly in what you're uncomfortable in, it only increases stress levels. You will eventually get closer to clouds and have no problem with it. Ask my wife, she used to be scared of clouds or going above FEW0xx (go figure).
 
I earned my private in 2008 and my commercial this year so I am a new pilot too.
After 1,500 hours as pilot in command I still plan each flight carefully before I fly and don’t take off without a weather briefing even if I can see the sky over the destination airport.
I find I make better decisions on the ground than in the air.
Part of my preflight is to read the most recent NTSB aviation accident reports so I can recognize the links in the accident chain and break it before I become an accident report.
If I am going to do something that I have not done before; I usually do it solo. Passengers can be a distraction for me and the additional responsibility.
I carefully plan this unfamiliar activity and try not do have more than two on a flight.
If I am flying to a new airport I make a drawing of the airport and plan my entry into the pattern.
I still ask my passenger to be quiet during takeoff and landing.
I work to expand my capabilities slowly, a step at a time.
I typically fly with a CFI twice a year because I don’t know what I don’t know or have forgotten.
I stick to my weather minimums and wind limits being aware that conditions may be worse when I land.
Many times I have decided not to fly because of bad weather that never arrived. It is always a disappointment because that flying opportunity is irretrievably lost.
Several times I made poor aviation decisions and decided to fly when I should have stayed on the ground.
I have been lucky so far and am careful to remember that survival does not validate an otherwise poor aviation decision.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
This normal. Anytime you are doing something for the first time in a plane, exercise caution. After getting my cert, I would do pattern work on marginal days to get an idea about what it meant to fly in it.

POA seems to be in a crabby mood lately especially with regard to new pilots asking questions.

What you experienced is normal.
Maybe make some more flights like this but solo and establish a min for yourself based on how your comfort level changes.

Good question
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What Bryan said (on all counts). This is the normal process of stretching you wings so to speak.

Was it CCR to LVK? There can be a fair amount of traffic in that corridor. So with passengers for the first time, a little weather, other traffic and class B overhead, its totally normal to feel a bit overloaded. These are great learning flights.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Don't be in such a hurry to cut the umbilical from your CFI. Yes, you have a ticket, but it takes time to develop the judgment and skill (maturity) that comes with it.

Learn from the experience. Vow to do better next time. Fly safe.
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I really agree with the highlighted. While primary training and the PTS does a good job to get us our certificates, there is sooo much more information to take on to help us be safe and manage the situations that may arise.

I've frequently suggested to instructors and schools that we need an "advanced novice" training opportunity to teach us things that either weren't covered during primary, or weren't stressed and practiced enough. Something in the form of a 1 day seminar and then 3-5 hours of flying. Work on and practice items like emergencies, flying at near gross, improving ADM, weather knowledge and decision making, acquiring and maintaining our own airplane, and more.

Sadly, even after repeatedly suggesting it, and being told it sounds like a good idea, I've yet to see an instructor or school make it happen.
 
As others have already stated, 'go / no go' decisions come down to you as PIC. Those decisions may be based on weather or any other factor. I'm also a very new private pilot. Took my first passenger up 2 days after my checkride and stayed close to the areas I was familiar with. The weather was very good but not knowing how well my passenger would tolerate the first flight I wanted to be able to come back to a familiar field quickly and land.

My second flight was scheduled a couple of weeks after that. I had been wanting to fly away from the home field for a while and a friend was willing to accompany me. Weather was absolutely gorgeous and it was the absolute perfect day for me to make this trip. Unfortunately when I was ready to taxi out and called ground, I got no answer back. Several more minutes of fiddling with the radios gave us the answer - the 'clicker' or 'push to talk' on MY side
wasn't working. Our options were to use the handheld mic mounted by the trim wheel - pick it up each time; or to swap plugs (my headset plugged into the right, his headset into the left) and have my passenger 'que up' the mic every time I wanted to talk on the radios. I decided to try out how well this would work in the pattern at home field and although it was somewhat awkward and clunky, it did work. However, going out to a different/unfamiliar airport I've never been to before is a different story. I really wanted to be on the ball with everything, and was going to use flight following both ways. I did not want to deal with this additional distraction so decided to just stay close to home. It was a bummer as I had been looking forward to making this flight for a while. My friend did not complain when I told him that in the interest of safety I would defer our trip to another day and we had a good flight.​
 
OK, here's a way to get good with the airspace, fast. You're at CCR, right?

Pick a calm CAVU morning. Fly to Oakland. Not through, around, whatever. To. Get ATIS over the phone before engine start, tell Concord Ground you're going to Oakland and set the squawk code. If they won't do it (it's hit or miss), contact NorCal as soon as clear of Class D and tell them you're going to Oakland. Ask for the option. You'll get it, and you'll almost certainly be assigned to 28R. If you feel like it, park at Landmark and go to the air museum (easy walking distance, and Landmark won't charge a ramp fee for a few hours). All your workload in this exercise will be staying below Class B while reasonably clear of the east bay hills, as OAK Class C is unusually short.

If there is a game going on at the Coliseum, pick a different day. The TFR is irrelevant inside Class C, but it will be buzzing with traffic.

Once you're comfy with that (and it's a lot easier than it sounds), transition through Class C to Palo Alto or San Carlos. You'll get a ton of handoffs, including two right over the field. The big gotcha is staying under Class B -- 1400 or below, and east of mid-span San Mateo Bridge until south of the bridge. Transitions are highly restricted, usually over Coliseum at 2000 and the 30 numbers at or below 1400.

Then you can try a Bay Tour or other Class B transition. It will be a piece of cake, but the local instructors like to scare the students about it.
 
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When I was learning how to fly it was in the PNW, I did pattern work quite a few times in 1500OVC, always some lower layers durin any given time. Sounds like your CFI kept you out of MVFR, which isn't good, but understandable for a low time CFI.

As for your question, just slowly ease into heavier crosswinds, lower ceilings and find your comfort level. The comment on getting your IFR, well that will only make you safer if 1 you learn from an experienced IFR instructor who has flown IFR outside of the training environment 2 You use it often and don't let your IMC skills rust.
 
Yes, very normal to feel edgey the first time you try something new without your instructor. As others have said .

I'll just add that a time ago, the requirement for Private Pilot was 20 hours of solo.
Exactly for this purpose; to feel more confident.
 
James331 said:
When I was learning how to fly it was in the PNW, I did pattern work quite a few times in 1500OVC, always some lower layers durin any given time. Sounds like your CFI kept you out of MVFR, which isn't good, but understandable for a low time CFI.
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I'm not a fan of bringing the atudent out in MVFR just to "see what it's like." I don't plan on doing that once I get my CFI. By not going out in MVFR, you are showing good ADM and judgement and not trying to see how low you can flow while still being legal. If it's an instrument student I wouldn't mindgoing out but taking a primary student in MVFR doesn't makes sense to me. The student might think that it's ok to stretch the limits and try to make his flight like JFK Jr. did when in reality you are teaching him to scud run in possible unsafe conditions.
 
- When you first got your license, did you feel like you were on edge because of going somewhere new that challenges your ability to juggle?

No

- Would you have gone flying with cloud layers this low?

Yes

Is this something that I shouldn't be scared of?

Yes.
 
jordane93 said:
I'm not a fan of bringing the atudent out in MVFR just to "see what it's like." I don't plan on doing that once I get my CFI. By not going out in MVFR, you are showing good ADM and judgement and not trying to see how low you can flow while still being legal. If it's an instrument student I wouldn't mindgoing out but taking a primary student in MVFR doesn't makes sense to me. The student might think that it's ok to stretch the limits and try to make his flight like JFK Jr. did when in reality you are teaching him to scud run in possible unsafe conditions.
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Too bad for you and your students.

I'll bet that will change once you get some more experience under your belt.

Nothing is dangerous about MVFR if you have some common sense, basic stuff about mountains, keeping your eye on the conditions getting better or worse, dew point spread, land marks, etc.

If I never flew in MVFR Id still be a student pilot lol.

Some of the best flying I've done was on floats when the clouds were around around 3k.
 
Thanks to everyone for their input. To continue the discussion, I'd like to clarify my route of flight and such.

I was flying out of CCR and picking up a friend at PAO for a bay tour. I chose to fly through Walnut Creek, Dublin, Sunol, and then proceed direct the Dumbarton Bridge to avoid SJC class C and to stay below OAK class C.

I did get a complete weather briefing and all of the METARs were generally good looking at SCT045 or so but that definitely didn't hold and those clouds got lower. As I passed Walnut Creek, the clouds started to get lower, I stayed around 2000 to avoid them and it became slightly intense as I came around Sunol over the golf course there. Lots of birds at high altitudes and with clouds and hills, it created a certain tension. Then after I passed that, APP kept pointing out a SWA737 I couldn't see that was arriving to OAK. Fortunately that wasn't an issue.

Lots of birds around PAO but was able to land without an issue. After I landed I looked at the METAR for SFO and SQL, and SQL was in severe IFR with OVC003, so I decided to not go on the bay tour and just took my friend up in the pattern at PAO. Left my friend there and then decided to head back to CCR which was far less eventful since I knew what to expect.

To clarify about my experience with my CFI, we have flown in haze and low clouds, its just that knowing he could take control was comforting. This was a great learning situation for me and I think it defined my personal minimums at no SCT cloud layers under 4000. Also, I was happy to decide against the bay tour even though I've done it with friends before and all.
 
James331 said:
Too bad for you and your students.

I'll bet that will change once you get some more experience under your belt.

Nothing is dangerous about MVFR if you have some common sense, basic stuff about mountains, keeping your eye on the conditions getting better or worse, dew point spread, land marks, etc.

If I never flew in MVFR Id still be a student pilot lol.

Some of the best flying I've done was on floats when the clouds were around around 3k.
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It doesn't make you any less of a pilot by not going out in MVFR conditions. I'm not saying it has to be a CAVU day to be able to fly but by going out in <6 miles visibility and a 1500 ft celing isnn't showing your student good decision making. Sure you are legally allowed to fly in it but the overall picture your student is going to get is "hey let's see how far we can go without breaking the rules" There have been far too many numerous reports of pilots killing themselves in MVFR conditons although they were legally allowed to fly in it. The cons far outweighs the pros IMO
 
jordane93 said:
It doesn't make you any less of a pilot by not going out in MVFR conditions. I'm not saying it has to be a CAVU day to be able to fly but by going out in <6 miles visibility and a 1500 ft celing isnn't showing your student good decision making. Sure you are legally allowed to fly in it but the overall picture your student is going to get is "hey let's see how far we can go without breaking the rules" There have been far too many numerous reports of pilots killing themselves in MVFR conditons although they were legally allowed to fly in it. The cons far outweighs the pros IMO
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No but it does give your student an idea of what trouble they can get into vs letting them get into it on their own after their private. I take mine out so they can see that 3 miles of vis really does suck when going 120kts+.
 
EdFred said:
No but it does give your student an idea of what trouble they can get into vs letting them get into it on their own after their private. I take mine out so they can see that 3 miles of vis really does suck when going 120kts+.
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That is useful for sure, but wouldn't it be better to have them focus on adeqaute flight planning and getting a thorough briefing before flying?
 
James331 said:
Too bad for you and your students.

I'll bet that will change once you get some more experience under your belt.

Nothing is dangerous about MVFR if you have some common sense, basic stuff about mountains, keeping your eye on the conditions getting better or worse, dew point spread, land marks, etc.

If I never flew in MVFR Id still be a student pilot lol.

Some of the best flying I've done was on floats when the clouds were around around 3k.
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I have read enough accidents reports where the pilot thought that minimum VFR was safe to have a different attitude.
In my experience sky conditions can change quickly particularly around the San Francisco Bay Area.
I have often found conditions very different away from the reporting airport.
I don’t have a compelling reason to fly so I wait for nice weather; particularly with a passenger.
 
jcepiano said:
Thanks to everyone for their input. To continue the discussion, I'd like to clarify my route of flight and such.

I was flying out of CCR and picking up a friend at PAO for a bay tour. I chose to fly through Walnut Creek, Dublin, Sunol, and then proceed direct the Dumbarton Bridge to avoid SJC class C and to stay below OAK class C.

I did get a complete weather briefing and all of the METARs were generally good looking at SCT045 or so but that definitely didn't hold and those clouds got lower. As I passed Walnut Creek, the clouds started to get lower, I stayed around 2000 to avoid them and it became slightly intense as I came around Sunol over the golf course there. Lots of birds at high altitudes and with clouds and hills, it created a certain tension. Then after I passed that, APP kept pointing out a SWA737 I couldn't see that was arriving to OAK. Fortunately that wasn't an issue.

Lots of birds around PAO but was able to land without an issue. After I landed I looked at the METAR for SFO and SQL, and SQL was in severe IFR with OVC003, so I decided to not go on the bay tour and just took my friend up in the pattern at PAO. Left my friend there and then decided to head back to CCR which was far less eventful since I knew what to expect.

To clarify about my experience with my CFI, we have flown in haze and low clouds, its just that knowing he could take control was comforting. This was a great learning situation for me and I think it defined my personal minimums at no SCT cloud layers under 4000. Also, I was happy to decide against the bay tour even though I've done it with friends before and all.
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You made it hard on yourself.

It's easier to go straight through Oakland Class C, or else follow I-680 through Mission (Sunol) Pass and make for the Train Bridge. Contact Palo Alto Tower from the pass.

The East Bay hills like to collect marine layer. If that's a factor, go through the pass (provided it's clear). There is MUCH less marine layer over Pleasanton.

FYI, you can usually get a safe Class B transition over marine layer at 3500, though the sightseeing may not be that good. The METAR for SQL is only useful if you're landing there; if there is a cloud 1000 feet above it, you can SEE it from PAO. It's only 7 miles, and there is nothing bigger than Ikea in between.

Birds are a constant problem at PAO, especially Canada geese. Avoid flying under them, and watch out for flocks heading for midfield at 20 AGL. That's how they fly between the golf course and Bay.
 
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jcepiano said:
Thanks to everyone for their input. To continue the discussion, I'd like to clarify my route of flight and such.

I was flying out of CCR and picking up a friend at PAO for a bay tour. I chose to fly through Walnut Creek, Dublin, Sunol, and then proceed direct the Dumbarton Bridge to avoid SJC class C and to stay below OAK class C.

I did get a complete weather briefing and all of the METARs were generally good looking at SCT045 or so but that definitely didn't hold and those clouds got lower. As I passed Walnut Creek, the clouds started to get lower, I stayed around 2000 to avoid them and it became slightly intense as I came around Sunol over the golf course there. Lots of birds at high altitudes and with clouds and hills, it created a certain tension. Then after I passed that, APP kept pointing out a SWA737 I couldn't see that was arriving to OAK. Fortunately that wasn't an issue.

Lots of birds around PAO but was able to land without an issue. After I landed I looked at the METAR for SFO and SQL, and SQL was in severe IFR with OVC003, so I decided to not go on the bay tour and just took my friend up in the pattern at PAO. Left my friend there and then decided to head back to CCR which was far less eventful since I knew what to expect.

To clarify about my experience with my CFI, we have flown in haze and low clouds, its just that knowing he could take control was comforting. This was a great learning situation for me and I think it defined my personal minimums at no SCT cloud layers under 4000. Also, I was happy to decide against the bay tour even though I've done it with friends before and all.
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Were you taught to use flight following? Had you been on FF, ATC would have smoothed the way through the Class C airspace without you doing anything. AIM 4-1-15 and my book.

Bob Gardner
SAY AGAIN, PLEASE.
 
Yes I was with NorCal the whole way. Part of my stress was that at times I was low enough that they were losing radar contact and I was losing radio contact.
 
Vance Breese said:
I have read enough accidents reports where the pilot thought that minimum VFR was safe to have a different attitude.
In my experience sky conditions can change quickly particularly around the San Francisco Bay Area.
I have often found conditions very different away from the reporting airport.
I don’t have a compelling reason to fly so I wait for nice weather; particularly with a passenger.
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That's where knowledge and common sense comes into play.

If its P6SM 5 plus spread with 3k OVC, there is ZERO reason to scrub a local area flight.

I've fired up when I knew the weather was getting bad quick with a student. I knew before takeoff via would drop to below mins, sure enough we fuel up, fire up, run up, I say "how far were those hills to the east again" he looks over and they were gone. Shutdown and went back for lunch. The lesson he learned, VERY valuable.

It went from 5sm to 2sm, but how it did it would be very easy to get caught up in for a uneducated pilot. Again common sense and a little local knowledge or good met skills.
 
One quick tip now that you have your license to learn: Take on one new thing at a time. Taking a passenger.. OK. Flying to an unfamiliar place.. OK. Flying nearer to clouds than you're used to.. OK. All at the same time.. stressful. It's good to learn, but take it a bit at a time.
 
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