Absolutely. And thank goodness, or I'd have missed the runway every time. lol
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900+ hours and still learning basic stuff
- Thread starter Salty
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PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Best not to do it. Controller gonna be scratchin' his head wondering what's up. This guy wanna shoot a couple practice approaches at Ocala and Lakeland on his way to Boca or sumpin'. He can't read your mind so he's gotta ask ya wazup.
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
I also have never heard of "not use the K if simplying over flying the field".
I don't see how that would work in the following scenario. If I made a flight plan wanting to overfly KRMG airport, and I left the "K" off because I simply wanted to over fly it, I would put in "RMG". Which now looks like I want to fly over the VOR, not the KRMG airport.
I can see why not using an airport in an IFR plan would simplify things. Especially if there is a VOR nearby.
Of course, I have yet to not have them drop my entire route and give me a totally different one, or direct, one of the two. Kinda irks me.
Of course, I have yet to not have them drop my entire route and give me a totally different one, or direct, one of the two. Kinda irks me.
Always remember @Salty, for everything you learn in aviation, there's always someone there to point out that you're wrong!
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
1000RR
Pre-takeoff checklist
Same... A couple weeks ago, I wanted to go from Peter O (TPF) to Melbourne. Storms came through the Tampa area, so we waited to depart. The storms pretty much hung out between Tampa and Melbourne and further to the North. Weather was clear to the South (through the Restricted areas and near Okeechobee). I filed a route down that way and over and back up to MLB. They returned the "Expected" pretty much as direct (or almost)... which is the typical route they'll give. So I called up Tampa CD and asked how to get routed to the South and around the storms. The answer was pretty much file it direct, then when picking up the clearance ask for a Southerly departure for weather. They worked it out and I flew almost exactly what I originally wanted, but what I filed was pretty much direct. Learned a little that evening/night - a quick phone call can sometimes help a whole lot!!
I spend a lot of time thinking about the "pitch for speed, power for altitude" mantra, and I just don't think there's a simple way to boil it down. Flying is dynamic. For example, on approach if you're too fast and your rate of descent is too great, just pull the nose up slightly. No need to adjust power. You will slow down and your rate of descent will decrease. Two birds, one stone.
In any event I'm always open to new ways of looking at things. And being willing to learn is a good thing.
Pinecone
En-Route
Aircraft in front of him was capable of 90 knots.
Yes, he should not have S turned. But he should not have needed to.
Pinecone
En-Route
YES. VERY effective. LOTS of rudder power.
Yeah, you can work through it, but sometimes it's just annoying. Like, when I fly to Key West from Tampa, I like to hug the coast a little, so I'll file via GOODY or DEEDS, and invariably they will give me direct and put me way out over the gulf. Yeah, you just have to tell them what you want to get it. But I already did that when I filed!
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Question I got is why do it at all? If your filing via Direct airports, it means you have RNAV. There thousands of Airways and Waypoints out there. Why not just use Enroutey kinds of things for the Enroute part of the Flight Plan. Like you said, that’s what they usually do when you get the Clearance.
1000RR
Pre-takeoff checklist
Exactly!
Agree
RingLaserGyroSandwich
Pre-takeoff checklist
Just to be clear, were you in a glider or a powered plane when you were high on that approach?
Powered aircraft. cezzna 150
RingLaserGyroSandwich
Pre-takeoff checklist
Ah ok. I thought it was a glider in which case I'd have nothing to offer on the matter.
What was your throttle setting? If you were full flaps and power-out, were your only choices at that point forward slip, "lower the nose" technique you were encouraged to try, S-turns, or go around? If you had any power in I'd think you'd take that out before messing with your speed or coordination. If power was already out and it was me, I'd just forward slip. I'd be interested to see math or tests for a few common aircraft including a C150 for the effect of increasing your decreasing your speed from the normal approach speed... I generally think it's a bad idea to mess with speed for approaching a runway, though.
I was slowing down a bit to see what happened next. In Florida, you'll often hit some sink and the problem resolves itself, so I generally don't do anything drastic if I'm even close. If that didn't suffice, I would have slipped. But pointing the nose down and speeding up worked even better in that particular case. Especially if you had a passenger that wouldn't appreciate a slip.
In a glider this is probably a bad idea due to the difficulty in bleeding off the extra energy. I never tried it though as my instructor wouldn't let me get even a little bit fast.
Pinecone
En-Route
Most times, I found spoilers to be enough.
Not sure why more GA planes don't have them. At least the higher performance ones.
brcase
En-Route
In Draggy airplanes it does work quite well. I seem to recall something in my aerodynamics book about Drag increasing exponentially with additional velocity. Both techniques work, which one works best depends on the situation and the airplane.
In less draggy airplanes, just aim shorter so you can pitch up at about 100 feet or so and still cross that threshold at about your normal approach speed.
Brian
brcase
En-Route
Yes, some quite well, Did my first Glider Slip on my Private Glider Checkride. Found out the Blanik rudder is about 3 times as effective as a Cessna Rudder. Felt like we yawed about 70 degrees from the from the runway heading, but it did keep me from overshooting my spot landing.
Brian
brcase
En-Route
In a glider this is probably a bad idea due to the difficulty in bleeding off the extra energy. I never tried it though as my instructor wouldn't let me get even a little bit fast.
Depends on the glider, some with rather weak Spoilers/Dive Brakes it is probably a bad idea to get very fast and much more effective to slow down. Others like the Blanik or my HP16T with 90 degree Speed limiting flaps adding speed works very well.
Brian
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jsstevens
I'm sorry for your loss.
Proper turns are critical in the pattern. Coordinated prefered though slipping turns can certainly be a tool. I have used S turns on final to give room to someone in front. If these things exceed your skill level, don't do them. Last week I used a 360 left turn on right base to give room to the student in front who was dragging his 172 in. It worked for all of us. But I am very aware of airspeeds in the pattern and was trained to be mindful but do what you need to to make the pattern work.
John
The glider I flew most didn’t have spoilers.
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
I've thought about it just to fly over as many airports as possible in case I needed one unexpectedly.
Brad Smith
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Brad Smith
Doing a go-around has saved a lot of bent metal. It’s a great tool.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
Putting the nose down loses altitude..??
Who knew??
That said, it seems to me that is trading potential energy for kinetic. Still must disípate energy, just a different kind. I’m not sure how I see “draggy” as a valid argument, as it will draggy in both phases of flight.
Sorry,….
1) Have not read all responses. Perhaps I should have.
2) Not a glider pilot.
3) Not an aeronautical engineer.
Who knew??
That said, it seems to me that is trading potential energy for kinetic. Still must disípate energy, just a different kind. I’m not sure how I see “draggy” as a valid argument, as it will draggy in both phases of flight.
Sorry,….
1) Have not read all responses. Perhaps I should have.
2) Not a glider pilot.
3) Not an aeronautical engineer.
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Hang 4
Trade potential for Kinetic is exactly right. In a car, brakes convert some into heat, slowing the car. In a plane, things like speed brakes convert that potential energy into drag/turbulence slowing down the plane so it goes down more steeply, but does not gain as much speed (kinetic energy) as it would in slippery mode. A high performance sailplane would demonstrate this best. Speed brakes extended, nose down it goes down. No speed brakes, nose down you accelerate and can go the whole length of the runway in ground effect and do a wingover at the other end and come back and land. Same potential energy in both cases. Knowing how draggy or slippery your particular aircraft is lets you know the extent to which you can get down by steepening your descent. Not an aeronautical engineer, nor have I stayed in a Holiday Inn Express recently.
I was taught you never stop learning about aviation. Especially for someone like myself that have only been a pilot for 7 years.
I don't get what you are saying Salty? If I need to get down without picking up speed I slip the plane down. Is that not the best thing to do sometimes?
I am very lucky to become good friends with a 41 year pilot who is a Captain and check airmen for a major airline. I learn so much from him just about every time we fly together. Lately he signed me off for my complex rating after learning to fly his arrow. I got to help with the annual. Good way to get to know the airplane.
That is Greg on the right who owns the arrow that I got to fly 2.2hrs this day and Jim his 40 year AP/IA and best friend. Jim was reinstalling the muffler heat sheild that he repaired. Earlier this day we stopped at Tiffen Ohio to have a prop AD done to the hub of the propeller. Then off to Cleveland for the annual.
I don't get what you are saying Salty? If I need to get down without picking up speed I slip the plane down. Is that not the best thing to do sometimes?
I am very lucky to become good friends with a 41 year pilot who is a Captain and check airmen for a major airline. I learn so much from him just about every time we fly together. Lately he signed me off for my complex rating after learning to fly his arrow. I got to help with the annual. Good way to get to know the airplane.
That is Greg on the right who owns the arrow that I got to fly 2.2hrs this day and Jim his 40 year AP/IA and best friend. Jim was reinstalling the muffler heat sheild that he repaired. Earlier this day we stopped at Tiffen Ohio to have a prop AD done to the hub of the propeller. Then off to Cleveland for the annual.
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Slipping works just fine. But it has it's limits, and it's not very pleasant for passengers that aren't excited about flying.
Look at the graph above. As you speed up past best glide, total drag starts to increase very quickly. This means that even though you are pointed down, you're loosing more energy to drag. So, maybe a slip isn't always needed, depending on circumstances.
It's a little counter-intuitive to speed up in order to stop sooner, but it's true. Just like pulling back doesn't make you glide further once you get below best glide.... Just the other side of the power curve. Which is a another good thing about speeding up to add drag instead of slowing down. It keeps you on the positive side of the power curve.
Look at the graph above. As you speed up past best glide, total drag starts to increase very quickly. This means that even though you are pointed down, you're loosing more energy to drag. So, maybe a slip isn't always needed, depending on circumstances.
It's a little counter-intuitive to speed up in order to stop sooner, but it's true. Just like pulling back doesn't make you glide further once you get below best glide.... Just the other side of the power curve. Which is a another good thing about speeding up to add drag instead of slowing down. It keeps you on the positive side of the power curve.
I see, thanks for that and makes sense.
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Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
Funny - exactly what my CFII told me before my IFR X Country. She said there are three flight plans. 1) The one you file, 2) the one they give you on the ground to plug into your GTN, and 3) the one they give you in the air.
Lately I've just been doing 1 and 3, unless the one I filed unless it was short for training or for flying to the other side of the Atlanta Bravo.
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Speeding up and then slipping to keep you in flap speed can really bring you down like an elevator.
Pinecone
En-Route
Which one? Flaps?
All the ones I have flown have had spoilers, but not have had flaps. 2-33, 1-26, 1-36, Grob 102 and Grob 103