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Rosebusl

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Rosebusl
I picked up my private, complex and hp endorsements, and the AMEL add-on all within the last year. Now, its time to start looking to buy a plane that can move my entire family. The problem....I have 5 kids. So, I need something that holds at least 7. The good thing, my youngest 4 are all under the age of 7 and total weigh less than 200 pounds. So, for now and the next few years, I am not as worried about weigh as I am seats. I can't do the million plus thing. So, I am turning to all of you to figure out the right planes to look at. So far, I am leaning towards the 400 series of Cessna. But, really want to get your all's thoughts...
 
Rosebusl said:
So far, I am leaning towards the 400 series of Cessna.
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Not sure that would cut the mustard considering it's only 4 seats.

I'm thinking more along the lines of a Malibu or something of that nature.
 
Paging @James_Dean

He's got like 12 kids or so. (I think it's 5 as well) Really, with a 7 seat airplane + bags you are probably into 12,500+ territory I think.
 
I think the 421 would be a good fit for quite a while. Recommend a 79-79 C model. 2-300k depending on engine time and avionics.

Jim
 
The Cessna 414 or 421 can seat up to 8.

I really like the idea of the Cirrus Jet. But, my fear is the price tag.
 
EdFred said:
They may have 7 seats, but when you do the math on fuel+people, that 7 seats becomes like 5.
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Completely agree it is not a heavy lifter. That has been my question and why I haven't pulled the trigger yet. But, my thought process is with the weight of 4 of the kids under 200 now and, god willing, they are lighter for a while, I am not as worried about the weight as I am seats. So, would it work? That's why I am hoping you all have other suggestions...lol For the record, I am flying out Gaithersburg/DC area and mostly on the east coast for temp/density ideas....
 
Well, you could go wit a Cherokee 6 for now. Later step up to a big twin. That's about your only choice until you tell us your budget and monthly disposable income to gauge what you really can step into.

There is always Netjets too.
 
Fair question. I am fine with a purchase price of up to 500-600 and have the monthly to cover costs.
 
I don't know your financial situation, so take this with a grain of salt.

Be wary of the siren song of the cheap twin...and they're pretty much all cheap right now. The purchase price of most piston twins is negligible compared to the operating costs. Those Cessna run about $500 or more (sometimes much more) an hour to actually run, all-in. Say you fly 200 hours a year, you're looking at around $100K+ in operating costs each year. The $400K in purchase price disappears as a concern pretty quickly. If you're in a position where $100K expense each year isn't a big deal, more power to you. But I would concentrate on operating costs, not purchase price. It's remarkably easy to purchase an airplane easily that you can't actually afford to fly.
 
If you fly enough, or find some partners. Just jump straight to turbines.
An old King Air 200, A Cessna Caravan or Kodiac Quest would haul the family around just fine.

Tim
 
To compare, what do you think the operating expense of an older King Air 200 is compared to the Cessna 400 series compared to the Navajo?
 
Rosebusl said:
To compare, what do you think the operating expense of an older King Air 200 is compared to the Cessna 400 series compared to the Navajo?
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The problem is King Airs are very much calendar dependent, so hours per year matter a lot. Going on memory, you need to fly around 500 hours a year to not time out calendar wise on the landing gear. Which is stupidly expensive.
Anyways, I would expect the Cessna 4XX series to run about $600 an hour with a block speed of 150 KTAS. That is roughly $4 a mile. A KA200 has a block speed closer to 220, with an hourly cost approaching $900, which gives a per mile cost of $4.10
Not much of a difference.
It is also why operational costs are likely much more important than capital costs.
No idea on the Caravan and Quest, but I know on a per mile basis both are much cheaper than a KA (and why they are used by cargo companies).

Tim
 
tspear said:
The problem is King Airs are very much calendar dependent, so hours per year matter a lot. Going on memory, you need to fly around 500 hours a year to not time out calendar wise on the landing gear. Which is stupidly expensive.
Anyways, I would expect the Cessna 4XX series to run about $600 an hour with a block speed of 150 KTAS. That is roughly $4 a mile. A KA200 has a block speed closer to 220, with an hourly cost approaching $900, which gives a per mile cost of $4.10
Not much of a difference.
It is also why operational costs are likely much more important than capital costs.
No idea on the Caravan and Quest, but I know on a per mile basis both are much cheaper than a KA (and why they are used by cargo companies).

Tim
Click to expand...

Thank you, this is extremely helpful. Do you have a similar analysis for a Navajo?
 
The big twin cessnas are perfect for what you describe. I LOVE my 425.

There are a few drawbacks;


1. This isn't cheap. Get a GOOD pre-buy at a reputable shop. Pay the money to do it right or the costs of what might not be found could be painful.

Just a few -
http://tas-aviation.com/
http://www.airimpressions.com/
https://www.dfwaero.com/

2. This isn't cheap. You have to be an engaged owner. These are complicated +30 year old machines. Expertise is getting less all the time and the first tier shops are busy. You need to be part of the parts requisition and maintenance decision process to keep costs in line. You will want to find somebody local to you that you can trust, as well as developing a relationship with the first tier shops.

3. This isn't cheap.

4. Loading is generally a breeze, but get used to upping your game on fuel planning.


Five teenagers to Chicago for sweet 16 party? Check.
IMG_0651.jpg

Family of seven on a 1000 mile trip? Check.

IMG_2673.JPG


Four big guys and clubs to AZ to play some golf? Check.
IMG_2741.JPG

1200 lbs of stuff down 700 miles to help hurricane victims? Check.
IMG_3979.JPG


PM me with any specific questions, but FYI I've never owned a 414 or 421.
 
PA-31 Navajo?

I don't how far your missions are, but looks like you can get enough seats and useful load in one place. @Ted DuPuis flew them for a few hundred hours
 
Rosebusl said:
Thank you, this is extremely helpful. Do you have a similar analysis for a Navajo?
Click to expand...
Nope. when I was going the twin route in 2011, I was looking for pressurized. I did some very prelim work on looking into a Piper Chieftain; but the local examples I found were MX nightmares so I never took it further.

Tim
 
OP better check on insurance requirements being low time and no time in type. You’re going to be flying with a right seater acceptable to the insurer for prob 100 hours. Plus they will want recurrent every year if not 2x per year until you build some time.
 
Rosebusl said:
I picked up my private, complex and hp endorsements, and the AMEL add-on all within the last year. Now, its time to start looking to buy a plane that can move my entire family. The problem....I have 5 kids. So, I need something that holds at least 7. The good thing, my youngest 4 are all under the age of 7 and total weigh less than 200 pounds. So, for now and the next few years, I am not as worried about weigh as I am seats. I can't do the million plus thing. So, I am turning to all of you to figure out the right planes to look at. So far, I am leaning towards the 400 series of Cessna. But, really want to get your all's thoughts...
Click to expand...

Turbine Otter? Just reading about the accident in Alaska with eleven on board. Only one engine to maintain!!

Bob
 
paflyer said:
OP better check on insurance requirements being low time and no time in type. You’re going to be flying with a right seater acceptable to the insurer for prob 100 hours. Plus they will want recurrent every year if not 2x per year until you build some time.
Click to expand...

Exactly......
 
The cheapest way to move all that would be a Cessna 207, most likely.

But "cheap" is relative. If you really want to move your family around "cheap" in airplanes, get your wife to learn how to fly and buy a pair of four-seaters.

An entry-level turboprop would sure be nice if you can afford all the eggs, though.
 
Start building some tailwheel time.

You gonna need a Beech 18 unless you want to go turboprop or jet.
 
tspear said:
Nope. when I was going the twin route in 2011, I was looking for pressurized. I did some very prelim work on looking into a Piper Chieftain; but the local examples I found were MX nightmares so I never took it further.

Tim
Click to expand...

No problem. You’re the third person to say that about pressurization and Chieftians.
 
paflyer said:
OP better check on insurance requirements being low time and no time in type. You’re going to be flying with a right seater acceptable to the insurer for prob 100 hours. Plus they will want recurrent every year if not 2x per year until you build some time.
Click to expand...

First call I made. Interesting, I could get insurance with 0 hours in type, cost more obviously. But, it can be done. I had to have the AMEL though, wouldn’t insure it to buy to do the training in it. Now, that doesn’t mean I am stupid and wouldn’t consider a safety pilot...;)
 
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