7/8/23: Bizjet down F70 (French Valley CA)

Dang! And there was just a 172 that crashed there less than a week ago. :(
 
Per Flightaware it was LAS-F70, arrived 4:14 am local. Got down to 1600' (LPV DA), made missed approach. Accident was on the second approach.

KF70 081115Z AUTO 00000KT 1/2SM FG OVC003 12/12 A2986

When they took off from LAS the destination was clear.

KF70 081015Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 12/10 A2985
 
Tough conditions.
e51b42c3c3e50ddc686f31858168900d.jpg


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Pilawt said:
Per Flightaware it was LAS-F70, arrived 4:14 am local. Got down to 1600' (LPV DA), made missed approach. Accident was on the second approach.

KF70 081115Z AUTO 00000KT 1/2SM FG OVC003 12/12 A2986

When they took off from LAS the destination was clear.

KF70 081015Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 12/10 A2985
Click to expand...
I wonder if it was a "just take a look" approach. Or slant range erased the airport. A horrible mess either way.
Edit: executed a missed approach, and gave it another go. Seems like it would have been a good time to divert.
 
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Data above is for 1 hour after the crash (I think that's right, anyway).
Here's ASOS data closer to time of crash (not really any different): 081115Z AUTO 00000KT 1/2SM FG OVC003 12/12 A2986 RMK AO2,M
 
ahmad said:
Damn it another crash near F70. I just flew there last sat. Since then 2 crashes with fatalities.
Click to expand...
Very unfortunate. :(

I vaguely recall someone recently arguing the for awesome, accurate, and voluminous reporting skills of the Daily Mail on some aviation forum.

Looking it up there this am, I see they reported on both of these incidents as well.

On July 4, a plane crashed at the same airport shortly after takeoff. In that incident, one person died and three people were injured. ​

Footage showed the plane upside down after it hit a building near the French Valley Airport. Federal agencies continue to investigate that wreck. ​

That plane was a Cessna 172 jet​

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-crashes-California-field-bursts-flames.html
 
The fog and marine layer out there was insane in the mornings usually till about 10 am. This looks like a poor decision making that ended bad.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I wonder if it was a "just take a look" approach. Or slant range erased the airport. A horrible mess either way.
Edit: executed a missed approach, and gave it another go. Seems like it would have been a good time to divert.
Click to expand...

If it was a 135 flight there’s no such thing as a “take a look” approach.

Very sad deal.

edit: Looking at how much that thing flies I would say the odds are pretty good it was a 135 flight. I also found it listed available for charter on a couple websites.
 
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Hearing voices of people who perish shortly thereafter always makes me feel...uncomfortable/uneasy/anxious. So sad. "Talk to you in a bit" made this one stand out.
 
Mahneuvers said:
Hearing voices of people who perish shortly thereafter always makes me feel...uncomfortable/uneasy/anxious. So sad. "Talk to you in a bit" made this one stand out.
Click to expand...

Especially when you think you recognize the voice of the pilot, which just crossed my mind listening to this.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I wonder if it was a "just take a look" approach. Or slant range erased the airport. A horrible mess either way.
Edit: executed a missed approach, and gave it another go. Seems like it would have been a good time to divert.
Click to expand...
I have seen this story before, unfortunately.

A friend died this way at Lansing in 2018.
 
What if he got the runway in sight at DA so continued the Approach. Then ,on short final, which is where the crash occurred, poof, the lights go out. Did he click them on again for the second Approach.
 
Poof the lights go out, than poof go-around. Not saying it’s easy or flawlessly done and not being a wise guy, but that’s the first thing that comes to mind with that scenario.
 
Don’t some part 135 ops have higher min depending on airport or situation??
 
Pilawt said:
Well ...

Published minimum visibility is 7/8 mile. ASOS data one minute after the incident said 1/2 mile. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

Thats also assuming this old CJ had WAAS. Otherwise its even higher mins than that.
 
Den60 said:
I looks as though the PAX were not wearing seat belts.
Click to expand...

Having worked a high-impact aircraft crash before, seat belt usage is irrelevant. They will fail instantly under the forces of a crash this intense. Granted, survival in a high energy crash is not likely in any situation.
 
luvflyin said:
What if he got the runway in sight at DA so continued the Approach. Then ,on short final, which is where the crash occurred, poof, the lights go out. Did he click them on again for the second Approach.
Click to expand...
Good question. I remember flying from Wichita to Westchester County Airport (HPN) about 20 years ago in a Baron 58. We first stopped in Ohio for fuel and
then we needed to stop again in State College, PA so we could wait out a significant line of thunderstorms. Anyway, (after about 3.5 hours on the ground) I
think that we got flying again at around 10:30 pm or so. When we got to HPN the tower was closed and I thought that there were some layers of foggy clouds
near the ground, but there wasn't.

It was partial IMC on the approach into HPN and I believe the ASOS was saying a 1,200' broken ceiling or something like that with about 5 miles visibility -
so it wasn't technically IFR - or it was close, I forget. I think we broke out on the approach not too far inside the outer marker (maybe around 3 miles or so)
and I'm looking for the damn runway and I don't see anything except for pitch black, but my training also told me to stay on the instruments.

I had a copilot (who sold us the plane) who was supposed to be helping me - but we both forgot to click the mike five times because the tower was
closed. I guess that you can give us both a break because I just got through training in the plane and it was a long day. I wasn't new to the Baron, but
I was new to the Garmin 530's and 430' - and that's why the co-pilot was with me - to help me out with that stuff, to no avail and I was more than a bit busy
with everything else as well as trying to make sense of the new avionics.

Anyway, we get down to minimums and nothing - so I go missed and we're back into the soup on the upwind, but not until 1,200' or so - but I didn't want
that after a long day. But adrenaline must have kicked in when being vectored for the second approach and I started thinking. When we're at the outer
marker again and we appear to break out, I'm like holy smokes - we need five clicks! If I didn't think of that (and there's no telling what the heck my co-pilot
was thinking, if at all) we never would have found the runway. Anyway, five clicks and low and behold, the runway lights up like a Christmas tree and we get the
MALSR and runway lights - the rabbits were a great sight to see!

The bottom line is that I originally thought that the runway was being obscured by patchy fog at night. I've seen that before going into HPN (my home base
back then) and it was a very plausible explanation. Sometimes those patches are near and around the runway but they don't obscure it - it can be tricky so you just
need to be ready to go missed if you lose the runway close to the ground. But difference this time is that you can usually see some patches of fog at
night because nearby lights (from the streetlights, houses, airport lighting etc.) appear to light them up. This time I didn't see anything except for black.

Anyway, when we broke out of the clouds for the second time (near the outer marker), I thought some more and luckily I did. There was nobody else to
help because the controller didn't know and my copilot wasn't being much of a copilot except for tuning the nav and coms well - which was definitely
different than the Bendix / Kings that I was used to. I had a great feel for the plane in general (with about 1,200 hours in type), just not the avionics.
If I didn't that missed approach could have been dicey, but it went well. At that point I learned that my copilot wasn't as experienced as 'advertised.'
Because, if he was, he would have said five clicks are necessary while I was really busy with everything else - particularly flying the plane!

The moral of the story is that there's so much involved in flying - particularly instrument flying at night. If I didn't have a fair amount of night experience
in the Baron (and other planes), I would probably not have remembered to give it those five clicks the second time around. And sometimes we just need
to save our own hides because there might not be much help, if any. And that's why proficiency is key.

PS:

I'm guessing that clicking the runway lights might not have anything to do with this unfortunate Citation accident - but that's just a guess.
I say that because the ceiling and visibility was so low - the fog was so thick nothing could have saved them except for maybe high-intensity
runway lighting.

I don't think that it's talked about enough. Going into such a low ceiling and visibility (which was probably illegal for this likely 135 crew)
without more 'help' can be too much to ask even if it's legal for Part 91. I think that more people should fly into airports that have at least
MALSR lighting to see what I mean. And if they can get to ALSF I (and particularly II) which are used for things like Category II and III ILSs, you'll
know what I mean - it's a lot safer than just relying on relatively wimpy runway end identifier lights or REILs. REILs are OK, particularly for
night landings, but not for very low visibility landings - particularly at night.

And all the pilots in this RNAV approach into runway 18 had were the REILs and the PAPI - if they could even be seen.

This is impressive stuff - and it could be life saving.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=669437124095844
 
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CaptainDoug said:
Good question. I remember flying from Wichita to Westchester County Airport (HPN) about 20 years ago in a Baron 58. We first stopped in Ohio for fuel and
then we needed to stop again in State College, PA so we could wait out a significant line of thunderstorms. Anyway, (after about 3.5 hours on the ground) I
think that we got flying again at around 10:30 pm or so. When we got to HPN the tower was closed and I thought that there were some layers of foggy clouds
near the ground, but there wasn't.

It was partial IMC on the approach into HPN and I believe the ASOS was saying a 1,200' broken ceiling or something like that - so it wasn't technically IFR -
or it was close, I forget. I think we broke out on the approach not too far inside the outer marker (maybe around 3 miles or so) and I'm looking for the damn
runway and I don't see anything except for pitch black, but my training also told me to stay on the instruments.

I had a copilot (who sold us the plane) who was supposed to be helping me - but we both forgot to click the mike five times because the tower was
closed. I guess that you can give us both a break because I just got through training in the plane and it was a long day. I wasn't new to the Baron, but
I was new to the Garmin 530's and 430' - and that's why the co-pilot was with me - to help me out with that stuff, to no avail and I was more than a bit busy
with everything else as well as trying to make sense of the new avionics.

Anyway, we get down to minimums and nothing - so I go missed and we're back into the soup on the upwind, but not until 1,200' or so - but I didn't want
that after a long day. But adrenaline must have kicked in when being vectored for the second approach and I started thinking. When we're at the outer
marker again and we appear to break out, I'm like holy smokes - we need five clicks! If I didn't think of that (and there's no telling what the heck my co-pilot
was thinking, if at all) we never would have found the runway. Anyway, five clicks and low and behold, the runway lights up like a Christmas tree and we get the
MALSR and runway lights - the rabbits were a great sight to see!

The bottom line is that I originally thought that the runway was being obscured by patchy fog at night. I've seen that before going into HPN (my home base)
and it was a very plausible explanation. Sometimes those patches are near and around the runway but they don't obscure it - it can be tricky so you just
need to be ready to go missed if you lose the runway close to the ground. But difference this time is that you can usually see some patches of fog at
night because nearby lights (from the streetlights, houses, airport lighting etc.) appear to light them up. This time I didn't see anything except for black.

Anyway, when we broke out of the clouds for the second time (near the outer marker), I thought some more and luckily I did. There was nobody else to
help because the controller didn't know and my copilot wasn't being much of a copilot except for tuning the nav and coms well - which was definitely
different than the Bendix / Kings that I was used to. I had a great feel for the plane in general (with about 1,200 hours in type), just not the avionics.
If I didn't that missed approach could have been dicey, but it went well. At that point I learned that my copilot wasn't as experienced as 'advertised.'
Because, if he was, he would have said five clicks are necessary while I was really busy with everything else - particularly flying the plane!

The moral of the story is that there's so much involved in flying - particularly instrument flying at night. If I didn't have a fair amount of night experience
in the Baron, I would probably not have remembered to give it those five clicks the second time around. And sometimes we just need to save our own
hides because there might not be much help, if any. And that's why proficiency is key.
Click to expand...
Yeah. The scenario I was bringing up is he got the lights. First time because he did click them on but missed for whatever reason. On the second approach he got the lights again. But not because he clicked them on again, but because they were still on. They stay on for awhile and then time out and go off. I think about 15 minutes is typical. It could have happened on very short final and he got startled and didn’t react all that well.
 
CaptainDoug said:
Good question. I remember flying from Wichita to Westchester County Airport (HPN) about 20 years ago in a Baron 58. We first stopped in Ohio for fuel and
then we needed to stop again in State College, PA so we could wait out a significant line of thunderstorms. Anyway, (after about 3.5 hours on the ground) I
think that we got flying again at around 10:30 pm or so. When we got to HPN the tower was closed and I thought that there were some layers of foggy clouds
near the ground, but there wasn't.

It was partial IMC on the approach into HPN and I believe the ASOS was saying a 1,200' broken ceiling or something like that with about 5 miles visibility -
so it wasn't technically IFR - or it was close, I forget. I think we broke out on the approach not too far inside the outer marker (maybe around 3 miles or so)
and I'm looking for the damn runway and I don't see anything except for pitch black, but my training also told me to stay on the instruments.

I had a copilot (who sold us the plane) who was supposed to be helping me - but we both forgot to click the mike five times because the tower was
closed. I guess that you can give us both a break because I just got through training in the plane and it was a long day. I wasn't new to the Baron, but
I was new to the Garmin 530's and 430' - and that's why the co-pilot was with me - to help me out with that stuff, to no avail and I was more than a bit busy
with everything else as well as trying to make sense of the new avionics.

Anyway, we get down to minimums and nothing - so I go missed and we're back into the soup on the upwind, but not until 1,200' or so - but I didn't want
that after a long day. But adrenaline must have kicked in when being vectored for the second approach and I started thinking. When we're at the outer
marker again and we appear to break out, I'm like holy smokes - we need five clicks! If I didn't think of that (and there's no telling what the heck my co-pilot
was thinking, if at all) we never would have found the runway. Anyway, five clicks and low and behold, the runway lights up like a Christmas tree and we get the
MALSR and runway lights - the rabbits were a great sight to see!

The bottom line is that I originally thought that the runway was being obscured by patchy fog at night. I've seen that before going into HPN (my home base
back then) and it was a very plausible explanation. Sometimes those patches are near and around the runway but they don't obscure it - it can be tricky so you just
need to be ready to go missed if you lose the runway close to the ground. But difference this time is that you can usually see some patches of fog at
night because nearby lights (from the streetlights, houses, airport lighting etc.) appear to light them up. This time I didn't see anything except for black.

Anyway, when we broke out of the clouds for the second time (near the outer marker), I thought some more and luckily I did. There was nobody else to
help because the controller didn't know and my copilot wasn't being much of a copilot except for tuning the nav and coms well - which was definitely
different than the Bendix / Kings that I was used to. I had a great feel for the plane in general (with about 1,200 hours in type), just not the avionics.
If I didn't that missed approach could have been dicey, but it went well. At that point I learned that my copilot wasn't as experienced as 'advertised.'
Because, if he was, he would have said five clicks are necessary while I was really busy with everything else - particularly flying the plane!

The moral of the story is that there's so much involved in flying - particularly instrument flying at night. If I didn't have a fair amount of night experience
in the Baron (and other planes), I would probably not have remembered to give it those five clicks the second time around. And sometimes we just need
to save our own hides because there might not be much help, if any. And that's why proficiency is key.

PS:

I'm guessing that clicking the runway lights might not have anything to do with this unfortunate Citation accident - but that's just a guess.
I say that because the ceiling and visibility was so low - the fog was so thick nothing could have saved them except for maybe high-intensity
runway lighting.

I don't think that it's talked about enough. Going into such a low ceiling and visibility (which was probably illegal for this likely 135 crew)
without more 'help' can be too much to ask even if it's legal for Part 91. I think that more people should fly into airports that have at least
MALSR lighting to see what I mean. And if they can get to ALSF I (and particularly II) which are used for things like Category II and III ILSs, you'll
know what I mean - it's a lot safer than just relying on relatively wimpy runway end identifier lights or REILs. REILs are OK, particularly for
night landings, but not for very low visibility landings - particularly at night.

And that's all the pilots in this RNAV approach into runway 18 had, was the REILs.

This is impressive stuff - and it could be life saving.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=669437124095844
Click to expand...
Here's a good article on how to legally use the more powerful approach lighting systems:

www.ifr-magazine.com

Approach Light Secrets - IFR Magazine

As much as we drill instrument students on the 10 items from FAR 91.175 (c) you could see to go below DA/MDA, in the real world if we see anything that might be part of the runway, we land on it. Its nearly certain that youll first see the ALS, allowing you to descend to 100 feet AGL and search...
www.ifr-magazine.com www.ifr-magazine.com
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. The scenario I was bringing up is he got the lights. First time because he did click them on but missed for whatever reason. On the second approach he got the lights again. But not because he clicked them on again, but because they were still on. They stay on for awhile and then time out and go off. I think about 15 minutes is typical. It could have happened on very short final and he got startled and didn’t react all that well.
Click to expand...
Good points. I know from personal experience that the missed approach (when you can't see anything at all
at minimums) is probably the most difficult maneuver in aviation. I've personally had a PIC (where I was
the copilot) develop spatial disorientation on the miss. I could tell because we started to bank pretty sharply
on the miss. I knew that the PIC was just too maxed out just to get to minimums - his brain was literally fried
and he had nothing left for the miss. If people don't know what I mean by that they either haven't been
flying enough or they haven't even done any instrument training. There can be a point in your training (or
in real flying, god forbid - particularly if you're alone) where your brain stops functioning because its overloaded.
Or it could just be a combination where your brain is overstimulated and / or you become spatially disoriented
because your instrument skills aren't proficient enough.

The way to "cure" that is to train, train, train - be familiar with the airplane in different scenarios - particularly
with lots of simulated instrument practice (under the hood) and real instrument conditions when you're ready for
real IMC with an instructor first, of course.

On the missed approach out of Nantucket, I took over and we diverted to Providence (where the weather
was good) and all was well.

The PIC (who I knew well) just wasn't flying enough - and I know that I'm next to fail on that missed approach
if I don't train to proficiency regularly - that's how tricky it can be because we lose that skill pretty quickly.

PS:

One caveat - I'm quite sure that the PIC would not have made that ILS approach into ACK into a 200'
and about 1/2 mile visibility ceiling without me being there. So he was smart enough to know that he
needed a copilot for that type of flight. But the problem is when the fog pops up (and it does in
places like Nantucket - that's why it's nicknamed fog island), you really need to be proficient
beforehand to handle it.
 
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