7-4 Bonanza down near Aspen

I had the same thought about visualizing during flight planning, but I was thinking could you use MS Flight Sim (or similar) for that? I know MSFS doesn't get much love on here, but it seems like you could easily preview a flight with it.
 
I don't have the latest MSFS because I don't have any interest in spending the $$$ for a system with enough power to run it properly. That said, I still have 2004 and 2010 and use it in super-fast mode to get an idea of the geography for a flight someplace I haven't been to before. Going east? I just go fly there but anything in the hills, I check out in the software first. I haven't figured out how to use Google Maps well enough to do the same.
 
murphey said:
I don't have the latest MSFS because I don't have any interest in spending the $$$ for a system with enough power to run it properly. That said, I still have 2004 and 2010 and use it in super-fast mode to get an idea of the geography for a flight someplace I haven't been to before. Going east? I just go fly there but anything in the hills, I check out in the software first. I haven't figured out how to use Google Maps well enough to do the same.
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A couple of years ago I wrote a script to create a Google Earth flight path. It is not polished for consumer grade use (ie no point & click) but it it gives you what the pilot would see out the window.
http://sarangan.org/aviation/google-earth-flight-path-visualization/
 
The controls on the browser version of Earth are not particularly intuitive, and there are limits to your ability to control point of view. If you download the desktop version to Windows, it is much easier to pan around and change your angle of view.

Quite jaw dropping to look at that valley in 3D. Down at the entrance, from a pilot POV, it looks somewhat benign.

valley start.PNG

Up at the top, it's a friggin wall. No way out.

valley end.PNG
 
All you have to do is look at the chart, it shows where the passes are and their elevation, if you are not high enough, keep circling, it its not climbing, go somewhere else.
 
Wagondriver said:
All you have to do is look at the chart, it shows where the passes are and their elevation, if you are not high enough, keep circling, it its not climbing, go somewhere else.
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The pass these guys were crossing is not even on the chart.
 
Ed Haywood said:
it looks somewhat benign
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Ed Haywood said:
Up at the top, it's a friggin wall. No way out
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Seriously. The 3D flythrough video up thread made this seem not so bad.. the way the ground looks it seems relatively benign and like if you just climb a little more you'll clear it... then all of a sudden you are out of options and the end is there

Flying is no joke. Always have a plan, hopefully this accident will at least save a few lives down the road
 
sarangan said:
The pass these guys were crossing is not even on the chart.
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Its not on the chart because it is not a pass in the sense of it being the lowest place to cross in the area. It also does not go anywhere, you can go through "midway pass" but it just puts you in another drainage, it doesn't get you across anything. IF they had made it over that pass, they had two choices, go down valley back to Aspen, or up valley to Independence Pass. Independence IS a pass, the lowest place in the ridge to cross the divide.
Passes on the charts are the low areas to cross a higher ridge, many of them to cross the continental divide. If a "pass" is not on the chart its because you shouldn't go that way!

Those guys were done the moment they turned up Hunter Creek. There was likely no turning around and no terrain that they could climb over.
 
I went into ASE a lot in the 80's and 90's in a Falcon 20. Only went out the Independence pass area one time. We were on short final and the airplane in front of us did not clear the runway in time and the tower sent us around, no room to make a 180. We went out over the town in that old 20 with GE engines early in the AM. My first thought was we were waking up all the tree huggers, my second thought was I hope we do not loose an engine!
 
The tree huggers are already awake eating their granola. But yes it probably got their attention.
 
As someone who have flown in & out of Aspen more times than I can count… I would not do it in a SE piston airplane. I’ve always done it in a twin jet, with proper escape procedures in case of engine failure established ahead of time.
 
Kritchlow said:
As someone who have flown in & out of Aspen more times than I can count… I would not do it in a SE piston airplane. I’ve always done it in a twin jet, with proper escape procedures in case of engine failure established ahead of time.
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For VFR into ASE that's a pretty extreme view in my opinion. The runway is long with enough terrain clearance that is well within the performance limits of nearly every piston single. The problem is not the airport, but the route of arrival and departure. One can easily avoid high terrain altogether by staying to the northwest of the airport.
 
Safe option: do a performance calculation that guarantee with some safety factor that you will clear whatever terrain you plan on flying.

Safer option: Climb above the intended terrain over the airport/town/valley, until you are above the pass altitude by some safety factor… then hit the pass. Unless you screw up the route/altitude planning, this seems to be fool proof (not considering weather/winds and other mountain flying hazards)
 
sarangan said:
For VFR into ASE that's a pretty extreme view in my opinion. The runway is long with enough terrain clearance that is well within the performance limits of nearly every piston single. The problem is not the airport, but the route of arrival and departure. One can easily avoid high terrain altogether by staying to the northwest of the airport.
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I don't know about pretty much every piston single, depending on DA, but VFR operations at Aspen are nothing like the IFR approaches and departures. I have operated out of Aspen in piston singles, twins, turboprops, and jets. When VFR you can follow the valley towards Carbondale, um "downvalley".
 
murphey said:
Looks like he was heading to Independence Pass, which is a huge mistake for a single engine aircraft unless it’s a Pilatus or F16. And neither of those would head to the pass without circling for altitude first. Actually, neither of those would do IP anyway, taking off from Aspen.

Let me once again encourage all you flatlanders to 1) get a copy (free and downloadable!) of the Colorado Div of Aeronautics map of passes and recommended routes and 2) go take a lesson or two in high altitude airports.
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Cant find that free download. Do you have a link?
 
Ed Haywood said:
But that would assume someone recognizes the challenge and bothers to plan in advance. This one smells more like "hey let's do a fuel stop at Aspen on our XC, that's a cool place."
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I've found that there's a number of pilots out there, of all experience levels, that treat flying like they're taking the boat out.
 
Kyle N said:
Prelim is out. Pilot was given a IFR clearance of 16k, acknowledged he couldn't climb to 16k and instead took off VFR. Tower asked which pass they would be taking, and pilot responded that they would decide in the air.

Major ADM issues here. What's flight planning?

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/103412/pdf
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So they chose to just fly east and see how things works out. That is not bad planning, it is no planning. Even if they had briefly looked at the sectional chart, they could have flown over Independence Pass (it is flyable though it is discouraged). Instead, they ended up somewhere where no airplane should be.
 
For those not familiar with the area, what is the preferred way to get from ASE towards the east?
 
kayoh190 said:
like they're taking the boat out
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..and even something as benign as that shouldn't be as laissez faire as it is. There were about 800 boating deaths in the US in 2020, or a fatality rate of about 6.5 deaths per 100,000 registered boats. Deaths aside, it's amazing to see how many people blast out into the ocean with no life jacket, no flares or any kind of safety equipment, no real "plan", just "going out on the water for a fun day!" The Coast Guard stays very busy saving people who get into trouble
 
Bill said:
For those not familiar with the area, what is the preferred way to get from ASE towards the east?
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From those of us familiar with the area, don't.

People, please pull up a map (paper, electronic, I don't care) and look at the terrain.

https://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=39.222&lon=-106.868&zoom=10&api_key=763xxE1MJHyhr48DlAP2qQ

There's a reason Colorado CAP is one of the most active SAR groups in the country.

Even if you attempt Independence Pass, you're in deep s**t if something goes wrong. There aren't any outs.

Go northwest. Follow river to Carbondale, then northeast to Kremmling. Now you have your choice, head north to the state line, then east (never need to go above 10.5K) or east over Corona/Rollins Pass. After that, flatland.

Got a jet? Different rules, but most of us here are in pistons and unless a turbo, subject to wheezing engines due to altitude.
 
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I’m not going to listen to the tape again, but I believe the controller asked the pilots while they were circling to let him know when they were able to proceed eastbound. The controller was leaving it up to the pilots when they could proceed. Someone that listens to that part of the tape can correct me if you hear what is written in the the prelim noted below…

”The tower controller acknowledged and advised that they would let them know when the flight was high enough to proceed”…NTSB prelim
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Or, that’s a poorly written sentence that implies what I heard.
 
From the posts, it said the pilots left ASE at around 10k towards Independence Pass. From what I read Independence Pass has an altitude of roughly 12k and it’s recommended to be at least 2k feet above (14k) feet. So if the pilots continued a climb to 12-14k in the ASE area, then they could have continued to fly without CFIT?

Also, for the leaning, does this still apply in the winter? Do you only lean if the engine is running rough or you should lean it until it’s rough and then richen it a little? (I know should also consult POH as well)

Am planning some of these airports this winter-and doing research now to get ready. Am planning to run fuel at tabs and test the upper limits of the altitude while in the flatlands (if that’s a good idea?). I did some mountain flying out of Truckee-Lake Tahoe area, but we didn’t lean the plane just became aware of the up/down drafts - altitude wasn’t an issue there however as plenty of performance available.
 
mandm said:
From the posts, it said the pilots left ASE at around 10k towards Independence Pass. From what I read Independence Pass has an altitude of roughly 12k and it’s recommended to be at least 2k feet above (14k) feet. So if the pilots continued a climb to 12-14k in the ASE area, then they could have continued to fly without CFIT?
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On the sectional, Independence Pass is marked as 12,093 MSL, but you have to make sure you pick the correct canyon. In the one I think they followed, 14k only puts you 12 feet above the terrain. :hairraise:

https://skyvector.com/?ll=39.09809290962716,-106.63431379317522&chart=18&zoom=1

And by the way, I've been taught to never climb UP a canyon.
 
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Does anyone have the chart for the mountain passes? Cannot locate on the CO website.
 
mandm said:
From the posts, it said the pilots left ASE at around 10k towards Independence Pass. From what I read Independence Pass has an altitude of roughly 12k and it’s recommended to be at least 2k feet above (14k) feet. So if the pilots continued a climb to 12-14k in the ASE area, then they could have continued to fly without CFIT?

Also, for the leaning, does this still apply in the winter? Do you only lean if the engine is running rough or you should lean it until it’s rough and then richen it a little? (I know should also consult POH as well)

Am planning some of these airports this winter-and doing research now to get ready. Am planning to run fuel at tabs and test the upper limits of the altitude while in the flatlands (if that’s a good idea?). I did some mountain flying out of Truckee-Lake Tahoe area, but we didn’t lean the plane just became aware of the up/down drafts - altitude wasn’t an issue there however as plenty of performance available.
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Lean all the time out here. Next topic, flying here in the winter....be careful, but VERY careful! As a rule, for the single pistons, we try hard to avoid mountains in the winter due to vicious winds. One of the topics in the Colorado course is winter flying. The winds thru a pass can rage up to 40-50-60 mph. I’ve got a cherokee 180, fly from Denver area to Granby, Leadville, Alamosa but never between Oct and March. I can do Alamosa but going the long way around...Denver to Las Vegas, NM, then loop around south to Sante Fe and up the valley to Alamosa.
 
Palmpilot said:
12 feet above the terrain
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Not that you would ever run such a thin margin but this raises an interesting question..

Are these elevations from the ground itself or from the tops of the trees? Depending on where you are trees will add at least another 50 ft..

In the maritime world the navigation charts are based at the mean low water mark and at least with sailors it is not uncommon to head up a channel or lay anchor in an area that may only afford one two three ft of room under the keel..
 
Tantalum said:
Are these elevations from the ground itself or from the tops of the trees? Depending on where you are trees will add at least another 50 ft.
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It's got to be ground elevation, although I suppose measuring trees is probably doable with satellites now. At that altitude there shouldn't be many trees anyway, although it would certainly be a factor in lower passes of the kind NA spam cans should be using. If you have to hit something trees would be preferable to granite.
 
mandm said:
From the posts, it said the pilots left ASE at around 10k towards Independence Pass.
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To clarify, they could have intended to fly towards independence pass, but selected the wrong valley.
 
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murphey said:
Lean all the time out here. Next topic, flying here in the winter....be careful, but VERY careful! As a rule, for the single pistons, we try hard to avoid mountains in the winter due to vicious winds. One of the topics in the Colorado course is winter flying. The winds thru a pass can rage up to 40-50-60 mph. I’ve got a cherokee 180, fly from Denver area to Granby, Leadville, Alamosa but never between Oct and March. I can do Alamosa but going the long way around...Denver to Las Vegas, NM, then loop around south to Sante Fe and up the valley to Alamosa.
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"Lean all the time," yes. At higher elevation fields, (many POHs use "above 3000'" as a reference) you could imagine a spacer bushing or stop bar, installed on your mixture knob/lever, such that "full rich" mixture position was actually some inches (1/2 to 1, maybe) from the sea level full forward position. Of course, you'd never actually do this, nor would you want to adjust the linkage that way, in case the aircraft was ever operated at lower altitudes. This is an over-simplification of proper high DA leaning technique, but for airplanes at higher elevations, the mixture control essentially never goes all the way to the stop ( for Normally Aspirated engines).
 
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