6 place single engine piston fixed gear

Your best bet is a three-way partnership, but even $150k is a marginal budget for any of the planes that would normally be recommended here (C206/PA-32). Even if you could find one at that price the 1300lbs+fuel thing is going to be a problem.

Youve got a piston twin or turboprop expectation and an ultralight budget...
 
Thanks for the feedback. So, looking like a $50k 6 place single worth having is a unicorn at best. Looks like the rental rate for a local 172N is $120/hr. Would 700lbs + fuel work? 50 gal fuel = 300lbs, me (260lb), wife (140lb), son (150lb), bags (~150lbs)...1000lbs. Maybe somebody needs to leave a bag at home...or two.
 
numan1 said:
Thanks for the feedback. So, looking like a $50k 6 place single worth having is a unicorn at best. Looks like the rental rate for a local 172N is $120/hr. Would 700lbs + fuel work? 50 gal fuel = 300lbs, me (260lb), wife (140lb), son (150lb), bags (~150lbs)...1000lbs. Maybe somebody needs to leave a bag at home...or two.
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NICE 1964 CESSNA 210D
 
numan1 said:
Thanks for the feedback. So, looking like a $50k 6 place single worth having is a unicorn at best. Looks like the rental rate for a local 172N is $120/hr. Would 700lbs + fuel work? 50 gal fuel = 300lbs, me (260lb), wife (140lb), son (150lb), bags (~150lbs)...1000lbs. Maybe somebody needs to leave a bag at home...or two.
Click to expand...

You can start your training journey by having a look at the POH for a 172N here

https://www.seaplanescenics.com/documents/c172n-1977-poh.pdf

And computing the weight and balance for that scenario. The Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge, available at https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/

has a chapter of weight and balance and how to compute it. Though if you understand levers, the instructions in the POH should suffice. Give it a try and ask questions as needed.
 
To give you little perspective, I fly at 112 True burning 8.3 gal per hour 59-60% power in a PA-28. My useful load in 900 lbs. some Cessna 172 have 1100 useful. If 325 nm is what you want to cover, can easily be done albeit little slower than 6. You can carry fuel to the tabs , 35 gal, that still gives you 4 hrs aloft easy with VFR 1 hr reserve. 172 should be very similar.

Having said all that, getting a PA-28 or 172 in 50k is tough these days if you also want a decent panel.
 
numan1 said:
Thanks for the feedback. So, looking like a $50k 6 place single worth having is a unicorn at best. Looks like the rental rate for a local 172N is $120/hr. Would 700lbs + fuel work? 50 gal fuel = 300lbs, me (260lb), wife (140lb), son (150lb), bags (~150lbs)...1000lbs. Maybe somebody needs to leave a bag at home...or two.
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You might find 150lb bags is more than you need. We took a family of 7 to Florida last year with 90 lbs...rent a place with a washer & dryer.

You'll also find that older aircraft have significantly higher useful loads. 700lbs payload should be quite doable in a number of planes. I'm in a club that has a Dakota that will do over 900 lbs with full fuel, which is darn near as much as my lance.
 
Jim K said:
You might find 150lb bags is more than you need. We took a family of 7 to Florida last year with 90 lbs...rent a place with a washer & dryer.

You'll also find that older aircraft have significantly higher useful loads. 700lbs payload should be quite doable in a number of planes. I'm in a club that has a Dakota that will do over 900 lbs with full fuel, which is darn near as much as my lance.
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Dakota is a hauler, they say you can stuff pretty much everything you got in a Dakota and it will still be within limits.
 
WannFly said:
Dakota is a hauler, they say you can stuff pretty much everything you got in a Dakota and it will still be within limits.
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Yeah that's the problem...it can haul more than it can hold. Really handy if you need to fly your gold bars around.
 
numan1 said:
Thanks for the feedback. So, looking like a $50k 6 place single worth having is a unicorn at best. Looks like the rental rate for a local 172N is $120/hr. Would 700lbs + fuel work? 50 gal fuel = 300lbs, me (260lb), wife (140lb), son (150lb), bags (~150lbs)...1000lbs. Maybe somebody needs to leave a bag at home...or two.
Click to expand...

Wait - are there three of you or six of you? What you described is 550# of people, make that 650# with gear plus fuel. That’s easy 182 territory - maybe even 172 or PA-28 - and while your budget still doesn’t really get you much 182, it’s at least in the realm of possibility for the others or you would haven’t to stretch so far. 650# plus fuel is a totally different beast than 1300# plus fuel.
 
WannFly said:
What does “fly able but need work and can be a good project plane” all in one sentence mean? Sounds like a beat up project to me
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Remember it is a ad. read it as it is read.
did we learn anything from the Pre-buy thread?
 
AA5Bman said:
Wait - are there three of you or six of you? What you described is 550# of people, make that 650# with gear plus fuel. That’s easy 182 territory - maybe even 172 or PA-28 - and while your budget still doesn’t really get you much 182, it’s at least in the realm of possibility for the others or you would haven’t to stretch so far. 650# plus fuel is a totally different beast than 1300# plus fuel.
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After the initial comments, and acceptance of the fact that a 6 place single fixed gear worth flying for $50k is a pipe dream, pared back the passenger list to 3 and threw 50lb/person on for max load.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
You can start your training journey by having a look at the POH for a 172N here

https://www.seaplanescenics.com/documents/c172n-1977-poh.pdf

And computing the weight and balance for that scenario. The Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge, available at https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/

has a chapter of weight and balance and how to compute it. Though if you understand levers, the instructions in the POH should suffice. Give it a try and ask questions as needed.
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Thank you, Peter. Max useful 921, baggage allowance 120, 50 gal fuel 300. 1041 total - 300 fuel = 741 passengers, bags, oil

In the POH example on 6-9, Basic Empty Weight includes useable fuel and full oil, and then useable fuel ARM is added below that. It seems to imply useable fuel is added twice. What am I missing?
 
Jim K said:
Yeah that's the problem...it can haul more than it can hold. Really handy if you need to fly your gold bars around.
Click to expand...

You're gonna need those gold bars to pay for the thing - Dakota prices are nuts!
 
numan1 said:
In the POH example on 6-9, Basic Empty Weight includes useable fuel and full oil, and then useable fuel ARM is added below that. It seems to imply useable fuel is added twice. What am I missing?
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You're missing two little letters - Basic Empty Weight includes UNusable fuel. ;) So for the 172N in your example, the plane has a 43 gallon capacity for standard tanks, 40 gallons of which is usable. Therefore 3 gallons (or 18 pounds) will be included in the BEW.

Once you start futzing with the W&B for various airplanes, you'll realize that a 1300# payload is huge, and the reason most folks here originally assumed you meant useful load!
 
@numan1 Follow your dream and you will figure it out. Lots of good knowledge in this thread.
 
Initial Fix said:
@numan1 Follow your dream and you will figure it out. Lots of good knowledge in this thread.
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Yes!, but please do so carefully. This machine will cost you a lot more than you think it will to own and maintain. Having a $50k budget to buy is a warning sign that your first Mx event will put you in financial strain, and we'd all hate to have that happen. If someone said to me hey I have 50k and want to get into aviation, I'd tell them to get into a partnership on a C150/C172/PA-28 or something. Use the savings to cover the 10k to 20k you are going to dump into that machine in the first couple of years.

Owning an airplane has been among the most rewarding experiences I've had, but let me tell you, it is not for the faint of heart or checkbook.

-G
 
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The OP should definitely be looking into fractional ownership/partnership to accomplish what he's looking for. There was or is a 1/5 ownership in a decent looking 210 on ASO for $35K somewhere in Michigan. I'm sure there are other opportunities in other areas of the country too. If something can't be found, try setting up a group to do what you are looking for. Search for partners who are looking for the kind of plane you are thinking about. Perhaps there are some people locally by wherever you are that would be interested in a shared ownership group. With three people at $50K each, you could get into something pretty nice. There is a huge benefit in unexpected maintenance and costs too as no single person carries the full burden of the popup expenses.
 
Thanks to everyone for the information. Lots of homework to do. I'll focus on the training and licensure first and see what develops from there. Appreciate the help!
 
WannFly said:
Dakota is a hauler, they say you can stuff pretty much everything you got in a Dakota and it will still be within limits.
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The big problem here is that the only Dakota you are going to find for $50K or under is likely going to need another $50K just to get it back to airworthy status.
 
George Mohr said:
Yes!, but please do so carefully. This machine will cost you a lot more than you think it will to own and maintain. Having a $50k budget to buy is a warning sign that your first Mx event will put you in financial strain, and we'd all hate to have that happen. If someone said to me hey I have 50k and want to get into aviation, I'd tell them to get into a partnership on a C150/C172/PA-28 or something. Use the savings to cover the 10k to 20k you are going to dump into that machine in the first couple of years.

Owning an airplane has been among the most rewarding experiences I've had, but let me tell you, it is not for the faint of heart or checkbook.

-G
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If you can’t afford to drop five grand right after your next flight, ownership probably isn’t for you.
 
The lure of ownership is strong, but the reality is financially straining. I whole-heartedly endorse ownership for both convenience and personal safety, but one should certainly go in with eyes open. Talk to other owners for a reality check. It doesn't hurt to start small, and build your way up as you learn more about why and how much you fly, and how much financial commitment you can afford. The reality of ownership is that for any new-to-you plane you purchase, especially if you get a good deal, there will likely be 1-3 years of "enhanced maintenance" to bring the plane up to your safety and comfort standards. There are usually reasons why people sell aircraft, and financial stresses (and associated deferred maintenance) is a popular reason. If you avoid the "enhanced maintenance" period, then you probably paid top dollar up front. A well-equipped, modestly powered 4-place (150-180 hp) is going to cost well in excess of $50k. And a light aircraft is not a reliable means of transportation if you *have* to be there, especially if limited to VFR operations, unless you live in a weather-blessed region of the country. But if you understand the limitations and can be flexible, it can be a lot of fun to travel by light plane instead of long-distance marathon driving.

I bought a two-place (AA-1A) initially, and wore it out for 4 years gaining experience before selling it for a 4-place (AA-5) for IFR training and beyond. The AA-5 is right for my mission, which is regional and sometimes beyond IFR trips for 2 plus luggage. That keeps me well within safety margins for performance and loading. When I needed more capacity, I rented a Tiger (AA-5B) into which it was possible to cram 3 adults plus camping gear with full fuel, but barely. I'm not a big fan on flying on the ragged edge of MGW. If you need more plane than you can afford outright, then a renting or a flying club makes sense.
 
numan1 said:
Thank you, Peter. Max useful 921, baggage allowance 120, 50 gal fuel 300. 1041 total - 300 fuel = 741 passengers, bags, oil

In the POH example on 6-9, Basic Empty Weight includes useable fuel and full oil, and then useable fuel ARM is added below that. It seems to imply useable fuel is added twice. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Good to see you taking your first steps toward becoming a pilot! Basic empty weight includes "UNuseable fuel" and is included in that #1 line on the chart. "unuseable fuel" is the fuel at the very bottom of the tanks that the engine can't burn in flight. The next line is "useable fuel", the part which can be burnt and added by the pilot.

But in this plane, it looks like 43 gals is the maximum allowable useable fuel because of the size of the tanks. This is listed in the specifications for the plane, right near the front. So you may need a fuel stop on the way.

Chapter 10 of the PHAK (Pilots Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge) has a good explanation of all this weight and balance issues. Chapter 11 talks about the range of a plane and may also be of interest.
 
Since you are starting on this journey, I would also like to recommend another possible way to start learning to fly for your consideration. Have you considered starting to fly in gliders?

The reason I ask is that gliders are an excellent way to learn to fly as you really learn how a set of wings and controls handle in the air, without the distractions of power, navigating the airspace, etc. It is the way the Wright brothers taught themselves control of an airplane before adding power and one of the reasons they were successful when others failed. Many instructors will say that pilots who start in gliders have excellent control of the airplane.

The training you obtain for flying gliders can then be used to add a certificate for power, so it is time well invested toward that goal.

The Soaring Society of America has a map and I see 3 glider flying locations near Dallas. https://www.ssa.org/WhereToFlyMap.asp. If you can chop out a few weeks, you could also come out to Phoenix AZ and knock out that initial part of the training at the Estrella sailport which has a very effective commercial operation.
 
50k purchase price ...not in this market. Gonna be tough find a nice 180 with time still left on the engine for 150.

As far as maintenance that some have mentioned. Last annual on the Cherokee Six was 8500.
 
George Mohr said:
Having a $50k budget to buy is a warning sign that your first Mx event will put you in financial strain
Click to expand...

I agree with your overall post, but having a budget of $xx doesn't necessarily say anything about what that person is capable of spending, either for the initial purchase or ongoing maintenance. Not all of us want to spend everything we have on aviation. :D
 
Tantalum said:
I do! I do!

There's a fantastic Aztec for $100K for sale.. double the OPs budget but damn.. this would be quite the machine. I'm also biased at this point to twins..

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...del=AZTEC&listing_id=2389156&s-type=aircraft#

For an elderly plane it has a nice panel..

..anyway..
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Get this one instead:

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/searc...odel=AZTEC&listing_id=2363961&s-type=aircraft

That way you can fly around imitating @Radar Contact as One Bravo Charlie. :D
 
kayoh190 said:
I agree with your overall post, but having a budget of $xx doesn't necessarily say anything about what that person is capable of spending, either for the initial purchase or ongoing maintenance. Not all of us want to spend everything we have on aviation. :D
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That's why I called it a warning sign, not a conclusion :) I'll leave it to the OP to decide which.

hindsight2020 said:
Says you.
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Yup, says me, the guy that experienced this first hand.
 
A few years ago when I first started flying I had a similar thought. I wanted a 6 seat plane (Cherokee6 was at the top of my list). I figured I could get one for 75 - 100k and would be all set! Fast forward a few years and a lot more experience and a more clear view of what my mission was actually going to be. My personal budget had grown and I realized I wouldn’t be flying around with 6 people. 4 full size adult makes up about 30% of my flying and the rest is usually and me and the the wife, or just me out having fun. I got to know a few people around the area that flew different planes and started going up with them. Now I own a Cessna 182. It’s been the perfect plan for my mission. It cost me more than my original budget but I knew I would have to increase my budget to do what I wanted. If you have the means your personal budget might change. My point is get your PPL and do some flying. Get to know some people in your area and ask them to take you up. You might find that your mission changes significantly as you get experience.
 
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