45 year old, want to start training, concern about medical

U

Unregistered

Guest
Good afternoon,

I'm a 45-year old male in very good health. Located in upstate NY near Syracuse. In the mid 1990's I started training with a local CFI, and had logged about 10 hours dual in a C172. Never did any real ground school, and never got my medical. Life intervened, and married and 3 kids later, now I have the means and motivation to return to my dream of learning to fly. My grandfather was a long time pilot, and took me flying a lot as a youth, and recently I managed to meet the man who owns his hand-build Acro Sport II biplane, and took a ride in it. This lit a fire under me again.

This time determined to do it right, I found a local part 141 approved school, and am going to their open house this weekend I hope. I started looking into getting my medical, and did not realize that I would likely have issues.

I had a DWAI back in 1987, when a freshman in college. Total dumbass move, drinking with friends, girls said "wow nice car". You get the picture. Changed my life, huge kick in the ass, not that I was a super partier anyway. But I rarely drink ever since, and my record is very clean other than a couple minor non-alcohol related traffic issues and a couple fender benders over the years.

In addition, a few years back I was going through a rough patch with my wife, and my GP decided that due to anxiety and sleep issues he would put me on an SSRI and Xanax. I was on them for a few months, straightened out my marriage and haven't been on them since. Its been at least 5 years I think, maybe more. Certainly a lot more than 90 days.

I had no idea that this med, taken years ago for a condition that frankly I don't think I even needed it, would disqualify me.

Wondering how to proceed. I would like to get training started soon, while I am motivated and have the cash, but this looks to be a hurdle. Its also winter starting soon, so that means a slow period in flying time around here, so maybe a good time to start working on this.

Thanks for any advice, I will check this forum for any replies.
 
A single DUI thirty years ago with no other indications of alcohol problems is a yawner for the FAA as long as you produce all the paper they want to see to show your lack of any other history of alcohol-related problems. OTOH, any use of an SSRI ever is a big red flag to the FAA, and will require an expensive psychiatric evaluation which won't be covered by your medical insurance. The expert on obtaining medical certification with issues like these is Dr. Bruce Chien, whom you can find either on the AOPA Forums or his web site. And whatever you do, do not submit an FAA medical application until you have spoken with Bruce -- too much chance of an irrevocable error by using the wrong words or omitting required data.
 
Unreg, I have a very similar past. I got a medical. I second the advice to run it by Dr. Bruce.
 
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FYI, there is a rumor that a 3rd class medical will soon not be required for certain types of operations. And of course, there is always the "no medical" sport pilot.
 
Thanks guys,

I was really surprised by the SSRI stigma, I guess on some level it makes sense especially if you are currently ON psych meds, but with the way GP's hand out SSRIs like candy nowadays, there are Im sure a LOT of people who have been on one at one time or other, with no real mental issues.

I wish I'd known, I would have said no. He certainly didn't make me go on them, and frankly I dont think they helped at all. Just kept me up at night and made me feel zombified. I only stayed on them for about a couple months then just stopped taking them.

I'll email Dr. Bruce. In cases like this does he typically have to meet me in person? Wondering what a flight to IN costs these days.

Regarding the last comment - I thought the FAA nixed the idea of the "Drivers License Medical" for Private Pilot? Is this still a possibility?
 
Unreg, if you have a real account and would like, you can send me a PM and I will talk more freely of my situation and tell you how the process worked for me.
 
Unregistered said:
I was really surprised by the SSRI stigma.
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Many doctors are as well. The FAA has an irrational attitude when it comes to any psychoactive medication. This is perhaps borne in a small number of cases but in others it's completely unjustified. Some foreign militaries actually prescribe SSRIs to their pilots.

But as you were told, if you are OFF the SSRI and any other psychoactive drugs (like the Xanax) and since your case appears situational and a long time ago, it should be a doable certification.

However, while an old single alcohol conviction and a old SSRI use might be individually no problem, I wouldn't put it past the FAA to insist on a full PPP workup for you in this case.

Definitely talk to Dr. Bruce.
 
What do you want to do with the license once you get it? Have you looked into a Sport Pilot license instead of a Private Pilots License? All you need is a drivers license, no medical required.

Keith
 
I have looked into SP. What I ultimately want to do is buy my grandfather's biplane. The current owner is 75, and in great health, but he's not going to fly it forever. I think he will sell to me in a few years. Its too heavy and too powerful to fall under SP. (1350 empty and LYC 180).

I also would like to be able to rent a 172 etc. I have a local flying club that has a number of planes, but all but one are too big for SP.

Im writing my newly-elected rep in congress, and my senators as well. Maybe this next congress can get things moving, or force the FAA to do something. Wondering if I should just pursue training for now and hold off on soloing. OTOH if my class III would take forever might as well get started...

I think I will create an account on this board.
 
Unregistered said:
Regarding the last comment - I thought the FAA nixed the idea of the "Drivers License Medical" for Private Pilot? Is this still a possibility?
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They have nixed it a number of times. But Congress has written a bill to make them change and, apparently, even though the bill will never make it out of committee, it was enough pressure to get the FAA to move forward with some kind of "reform". What that "reform" looks like is not known outside the FAA, but somewhere there is a pack of paper aging on someone's desk.

What it will say, when (if) it happens, no one really knows. But, if we assume it will look a lot like the current sport pilot rule then a denial on a medical locks you out because the FAA would no longer have plausible deny-ability.
 
Unregistered said:
I'll email Dr. Bruce. In cases like this does he typically have to meet me in person?
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Depends on whether you just want advice or for him to do the full examination/certification.

Wondering what a flight to IN costs these days.
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Dunno, but you'd need a long cab ride from Indiana to Peoria, Illinois, where he is located. ;)

Regarding the last comment - I thought the FAA nixed the idea of the "Drivers License Medical" for Private Pilot? Is this still a possibility?
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It's in work, but tied up in the Congressionally-mandated rulemaking process. The folks in the FAA who deal with this want it to happen, but the "wheels of government grind exceeding slow".
 
Train for Sport Pilot or remain dual at the moment and when you get the medical squared away, upgrade/solo. Do not attempt to get a medical before you have all your ducks in a row. I'm sure others have told you to contact Bruce Chien.
 
I've used two different faa medical doctors over the years. Both flew, one had both a baron and a helicopter. Both very sharp. Both very hep to the FAA and "their ways" and either could have walked me thru your problems very easily were I in your position. I personally think the FAA rep. doctor you would normally go to would easily sort through your problems that occurred long ago. Most have heard every story you can imagine. Many airline pilots have history's far worse than yours and did not consult Dr. Bruce. Not making light of it but let's not get carried away either.
 
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Welcome to Pilots of America!

In my humble opinion, the relaxed medical standards will get done. The DOT has the draft and the rulemaking process is supposed to begin after they approve. People (including Congress) are getting a little itchy from what I have seen so I think something will be popping out soon, especially considering the recent election. If I were in your position, I would delay a little more and see what happens.
 
I concur with going to Dr Chien. It's s twofold process. First provide him with all the documentation he requests. Don't lie to him. Tell him everything. Do this while he is acting as s consultant. Get his assessment. Once he believes you have a high probability of receiving the medical engage him as your AME. Once he is engaged as an AME he changes roles.

I had a very difficult medical scenario; former diabetic, sleep apnea, weight loss surgery etc. I can't recall what the charge was but I think it was about $100 more than what I paid for my 21 year old sons medical-a kid with no medical issues or baggage. Dr Chien was very fair and reasonable given the time expended on my case.
 
When I was going through a rough patch with my (now ex-) wife, I was on prozac. I used it for less than six months, and was off it for years when I went for my 3rd class medical. I got a letter from the shrink that prescribed the meds to explain the situation (transient issue, less than 6 months prescribed, issue resolved). Both the AME and FAA yawned.
 
Henning said:
Train for Sport Pilot or remain dual at the moment and when you get the medical squared away, upgrade/solo. Do not attempt to get a medical before you have all your ducks in a row. I'm sure others have told you to contact Bruce Chien.
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:yeahthat:Best advice in this thread. Start with Dr. Bruce Chien.
In the unlikely case that Dr. Chien is not able to get you through the system, he will keep you from "burning your Sport Pilot bridge"(dumbest rule in aviation). Sentimentality aside, it may not be in your best interest to fall for that biplane without a thorough prebuy.
 
Unreg, I agree with the above recommendations re Dr. Chien. I am from your area (and am a board member of the largest/oldest Syracuse-based flying club) and I would NOT recommend you engage any of the local AMEs unless and until you've talked with Dr. Chien.

Dr. Chien is my own AME of record, and it's well worth the cost to travel to Peoria every two years if you have anything out of the ordinary with regard to medical certification.

Assuming you get the medical issue resolved, if that 141 school doesn't work out, feel free to PM me, as our club has a number of primary students and we have a couple great airplanes and instructors.
 
How would they know you've been given SSRI's in the past? It goes into some file all and sundry can access? Sounds rather un-American or unconstitutional to me. And certainly miles away from any doctor-patient confidentiality. This is why one should never have your GP and the AME be the same person.

They don't know unless you tell them, right?
 
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stratobee said:
How would they know you've been given SSRI's in the past? It goes into some file all and sundry can access? Sounds rather un-American or unconstitutional to me. And certainly miles away from any doctor-patient confidentiality. This is why one should never have your GP and the AME be the same person.

They don't know unless you tell them, right?
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Really? You're willing to knowingly falsify a Federal safety document?

What other Federal laws are you willing to violate?
 
stratobee said:
How would they know you've been given SSRI's in the past? It goes into some file all and sundry can access? Sounds rather un-American or unconstitutional to me. And certainly miles away from any doctor-patient confidentiality. This is why one should never have your GP and the AME be the same person.

They don't know unless you tell them, right?
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Were gonna head into the spin zone with this thread drift.

From what I have learned about the ACA, one of the off shoots is that our electronic health care records are more open to scrutiny when an appropriate authority wishes to review them.

By permitting the ACA to pass as it did, we Americans permitted additional holes into the doctor-patient confidentiality that you're waiving.

With regards to the FAA, sure, you could answer "negative" to the questions that related to SSRI use. But the first time you bend someone or something and have the fun opportunity to work with Federal investigators, you're not gonna like the can of worms that you've created. Healthcare records will be some of the background material they will gather and review.

The gallery will have to confirm or correct, but I believe Dr. Bruce has mentioned once or twice that CAMI does conduct Quality Assurance reviews that comb through various records. In this day and age of computerized and online centralized record keeping, it would be very simple for a query to be run on all airmen to find particular medical insurance and pharmacy codes and determine who has and hasn't declared that said codes apply to them.

As Bill hints above, this is an area that's not worth your time and money already invested to put your certificate at risk.
 
wsuffa said:
What other Federal laws are you willing to violate?
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Speeding (to get to a party)
Illegal parking (No where to park, because there was a party)
Jaywalking (to get to party)
Underage drinking (reason to go to party)
Illegal substance use (see above)
Open container(see above)
Urinating in a public place (see above)
Indecent exposure skinny dipping in the neighbors pool (see above)
Underage sex (see above)

All that in just one night a long time ago.

We all ignore or bend certain laws at one time or another. I'm sure not casting any stones.:)
 
stratobee said:
How would they know you've been given SSRI's in the past? It goes into some file all and sundry can access? Sounds rather un-American or unconstitutional to me. And certainly miles away from any doctor-patient confidentiality. This is why one should never have your GP and the AME be the same person.

They don't know unless you tell them, right?
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No, that's not completely right. There is a very limited chance that it can be caught (outside an accident, then you're likely screwed) depending on the circumstances. There has been a time when Social Security did a disability sweep and found these people with valid Airman Medicals and that started an investigation that got some people in trouble, so yeah, your whole file is accessible across the entire bureaucracy, and it is on a database where if people want to investigate one thing, they may come across another thing that if it pans out gets them a promotion for discovering. So no, the risk of concealing the truth does not come with no risk.
 
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wsuffa said:
Really? You're willing to knowingly falsify a Federal safety document?

What other Federal laws are you willing to violate?
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Any that restrict my liberties for no good cause. I am not responsible to the government, the government is responsible to me. It's sad how many people don't understand what America was meant to be.
 
wsuffa said:
Really? You're willing to knowingly falsify a Federal safety document?

What other Federal laws are you willing to violate?
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I wouldn't lose a moments sleep over that one. OP says he had a short stint 5 years ago on a drug every other agency in the world accepts (and that's handed out like candy). That's safe. And the ultimate goal here is safety, right? Not shaming or useless bureaucracy.
 
Henning said:
No, that's not completely right. There is a very limited chance that it can be caught (outside an accident, then you're likely screwed) depending on the circumstances. There has been a time when Social Security did a disability sweep and found these people with valid Airman Medicals and that started an investigation that got some people in trouble, so yeah, your whole file is accessible across the entire bureaucracy, and it is on a database where if people want to investigate one thing, they may come across another thing that if it pans out gets them a promotion for discovering. So no, the risk of concealing the truth does not come with no risk.
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But my point is - just because your GP prescribes SSRI, doesn't mean it ends up in a file accessible to government. Hey, every time I've been to the doctor they can't even find my previous records internally, not to mention externally. Or are you guys telling me that every little local privately practicing GP logs his records to some federal central database? No chance. No way.

Their reach isn't that broad, as much as they'd like you to think that. They have to get a court order under the Patriot Act to access them IF they even can find out who your GP is (not an easy thing to do).
 
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stratobee said:
But my point is - just because your GP prescribes SSRI, doesn't mean it ends up in a file accessible to government. Hey, every time I've been to the doctor they can't even find my previous records internally, not to mention externally. Or are you guys telling me that every little local privately practicing GP logs his records to some federal central database? No chance. No way.

Their reach isn't that broad, as much as they'd like you to think that. They have to get a court order under the Patriot Act to access them IF they even can find out who your GP is (not an easy thing to do).
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That's why the government is bribing medical providers (with fines for noncompliance soon to follow) to switch to electronic medical records. I believe you have already given the government permission to pry into your records when you apply for a FAA medical certificate. EMRs will make it easy.
 
If you don't plan on getting a commercial license, I will also say an option is to forget you ever took an SSRI. The FAA's position on these is odd, at least, and the only realistically possible discovery is if you have a significant accident.

As for the puritans that say what other laws would you break, get over yourself. We all break laws all the time, often inadvertently, it's unavoidable in current society. Almost as if the governments want it this way so they can nail you anytime they want.
 
wsuffa said:
What other Federal laws are you willing to violate?
Click to expand...

Alexb2000 said:
Speeding (to get to a party)
Illegal parking (No where to park, because there was a party)
Jaywalking (to get to party)
Underage drinking (reason to go to party)
Illegal substance use (see above)
Open container(see above)
Urinating in a public place (see above)
Indecent exposure skinny dipping in the neighbors pool (see above)
Underage sex (see above)
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Just because I'm feeling pedantic: unless you were on federal property (military base, national park, Washington DC), none of these were violations of federal law except the illegal substances. (Well, and the underage sex if it involved moving across state lines with a non-minor without parental permission, because then it qualifies as interstate kidnapping.)

The point is, while the lines have been eroded quite a bit by interpretations of the commerce clause, anti-terrorism laws, and drug laws, police power is still largely reserved to the states. If you shoot someone in the head in Tennessee, you haven't violated federal law (unless it was a federal-illegal firearm).

IANAL
 
Alexb2000 said:
Speeding (to get to a party)
Illegal parking (No where to park, because there was a party)
Jaywalking (to get to party)
Underage drinking (reason to go to party)
Illegal substance use (see above)
Open container(see above)
Urinating in a public place (see above)
Indecent exposure skinny dipping in the neighbors pool (see above)
Underage sex (see above)

All that in just one night a long time ago.

We all ignore or bend certain laws at one time or another. I'm sure not casting any stones.:)
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Let me alter Bill's question to "What other Federal felony offenses are you willing to violate?" And unless you were doing those things on a military or other Federal installation, I doubt you were violating any Federal laws (even misdemeanors) when you did that.
 
stratobee said:
But my point is - just because your GP prescribes SSRI, doesn't mean it ends up in a file accessible to government. Hey, every time I've been to the doctor they can't even find my previous records internally, not to mention externally. Or are you guys telling me that every little local privately practicing GP logs his records to some federal central database? No chance. No way.

Their reach isn't that broad, as much as they'd like you to think that. They have to get a court order under the Patriot Act to access them IF they even can find out who your GP is (not an easy thing to do).
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If you bought the meds with insurance that information is in the ACA database; consider that? Pay the doc in cash with a false name and buy your supplies online with someone else's card. That's how you have to handle your medical care to assure you prevent being caught.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Let me alter Bill's question to "What other Federal felony offenses are you willing to violate?" And unless you were doing those things on a military or other Federal installation, I doubt you were violating any Federal laws (even misdemeanors) when you did that.
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I was just having a little fun, I didn't mean to start a tangent.

On topic: on any given day 10% of Americans are taking antidepressants. What percentage have ever at some point? 25%? 30%? More? Who knows, but a lot of people have. Given that logic, IF the FAA was on a witch hunt for anyone who EVER took an antidepressant, EVER, then MANY pilots would lose their tickets. We would certainly be hearing all about it on this board. Yet, as much as we have discussed this I can't remember anyone saying the FAA just did a database cross reference and busted me. Because it isn't relevant what you took 5 years years ago. All they care about is that an active professional pilot doesn't kill a bunch of people in a suicide and then have the media find out s/he was on anti-depressants. So beyond the CYA no one cares, I know this because no ones getting busted other than a few odd balls.

We love to make the FAA some kind of demonic force around here, but I don't get that sense at all when we look at what actually happens in aviation.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I was just having a little fun, I didn't mean to start a tangent.
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I see nothing funny about suggesting that it might in any way, shape, or form be OK to lie to a branch of the Federal government on an official signed certification form. YMMV.

I would point out that what really burned that NWA 757 crew that overflew MSP was not that it happened, but that they told two different stories to two different Federal officials (FBI and NTSB ), thus making it certain that they had lied to at least one. Likewise, Martha Stewart did Federal jail time not for what she had actually done, but for lying to the Feds about what she had done when what she had done was not in fact illegal. This just isn't a subject about which I have any sense of humor since it's an opportunity to really destroy your aviation future permanently and irrevocably. Again, YMMV.

BTW, indecent exposure has been determined to be grounds for denial or revocation of an ATP application on the "good moral character" clause -- you might want to reconsider your earlier post about that sort of behavior.
 
Ron Levy said:
I see nothing funny about suggesting that it might in any way, shape, or form be OK to lie to a branch of the Federal government on an official signed certification form. YMMV.

I would point out that what really burned that NWA 757 crew that overflew MSP was not that it happened, but that they told two different stories to two different Federal officials (FBI and NTSB ), thus making it certain that they had lied to at least one. Likewise, Martha Stewart did Federal jail time not for what she had actually done, but for lying to the Feds about what she had done when what she had done was not in fact illegal. This just isn't a subject about which I have any sense of humor since it's an opportunity to really destroy your aviation future permanently and irrevocably. Again, YMMV.

BTW, indecent exposure has been determined to be grounds for denial or revocation of an ATP application on the "good moral character" clause -- you might want to reconsider your earlier post about that sort of behavior.
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Lighten up Francis!

Come on this is just a discussion, one we've all had countless times, no need to let it raise the BP.

I believe last time we had a similar discussion you mentioned that the U.S. Marshalls were dispatched to take John Denver's ticket the day he crashed? Right?

Now the Northwest pilots have been put in prison for lying to federal officials? Reference please?

BTW- Did you play Scrabble or Monopoly all those Saturday nights sitting home as a teenager?:)
 
dell30rb said:
This blows my mind. No pun intended
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I just picked the first reliable reference off Google.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/...-antidepressant-use-by-americans-201110203624

Here is a pretty good one from the Fox site that says one in five are on psychiatric drugs!

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/11/17/one-in-five-american-adults-takes-psychiatric-drugs/

Regardless, it blows my mind too. I had no idea. Seems like we should develop more specific criteria for pilots since this has become so common.
 
I'm with Alex on this one. Anyone who thinks government is out with your best intentions at hand, is delusional. Virtuous and righteous and fair, right? Void of self interest? Gimme a break. It's run by humans - and humans have self interest. Always. There are no exceptions.

So, you don't have to lie, but sure as hell don't need to tell them everything or even anything. Ask any LEO off duty and the first thing they will tell you is to never, ever say anything except "talk to my lawyer". Everything else is incriminating.

Don't give them an inch.
 
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stratobee said:
But my point is - just because your GP prescribes SSRI, doesn't mean it ends up in a file accessible to government. Hey, every time I've been to the doctor they can't even find my previous records internally, not to mention externally. Or are you guys telling me that every little local privately practicing GP logs his records to some federal central database? No chance. No way.

Their reach isn't that broad, as much as they'd like you to think that. They have to get a court order under the Patriot Act to access them IF they even can find out who your GP is (not an easy thing to do).
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Correct; if your GP is still using paper records (the ACA incentivises them not to, but many do), then the "records" won't come through the GP. They'll come through the pharmacy that dispensed the med and the insurance company that paid for it.

If your GP wrote you a script by hand which you took to your local non-chain pharmacy and paid for in cash, then you're right: while the feds could get to those records, it's unlikely they ever will.
 
OP,

If you choose the Sport Pilot route now, but want to hold onto the option to go Private later to fly the biplane, just make sure you get your Sport Pilot flight instruction from a full CFI, not a Sport CFI. That way the dual hours can be counted later toward the Private.

But I'd second the advice to avoid an emotional decision about the biplane. If it makes financial sense at the price offered and you can afford to feed, hangar, maintain and insure it, maybe. If not, take lots of pictures now and enjoy the memories later while you do your actual flying in an economical LSA.
 
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