4 seat kits. What's out there?

donjohnston said:
I could only find one Velocity flying in that area yesterday. If it's the same one, then it's a fixed gear XL with only a 260hp Lycoming. Most XL's have either a 300hp IO540 or a 310hp IO550. So that could account for a longer takeoff roll.

And 2,974' is within my minimum runway length, but not by much (my minimum is 2,800').
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Take off roll was just longer than other planes(not other Velocitys). Most would lift around 1/2 mark, the V ran about 75% of the runway. Or so it seemed(I was far enough away not to see the whole take off). It was actually shorter than I expected.

Later, in a fairly loaded DA40 we took about 1/2 runway before becoming airborne
 
I not sure all of these have been mentioned - here's what I know as the current 4 place kit manufacturers with cruise speeds over 200. Source, kitplanes buyers guide. There were a few that didn't have current websites and I might have inadvertently skipped one.

http://revolutionaviation.net/foxtrot/ (Foxtrot)
http://www.compairtechllc.com/ (Express 2000 FT)
http://www.velocityaircraft.com/ (multiple Velocities)
http://aerocad.com/ (Air Canard)

You said no to the Lancair

In the 150 to 200 category,
http://www.slittneraircraftplans.com (Sapphire and Super Diamant)
http://www.vansaircraft.com (RV-10)
http://www.zenair.com (CH 640)
http://www.bearhawkaircraft.com (Bearhawk)
http://www.airplanefactory.com (TSi)
http://www.bedecorp.com (BD-4C)
http://www.glasairaviation.com (Sportsman)
http://www.aircraftspruce.com (Cozy)
http://www.compairinc.com (CompAir 4) <- seaplane?
 
Can one of you Velocity drivers help me sell a Velocity to my wife?

After reading Bryan's annual inspection thread (we had 1.5 years ago a +$40K annual ourselves due to an unexpected engine overhaul and some other stuff) I am again increasingly motivated to replace our Mooney with an experimental.
The problems is, that while we rarely take anybody with us, it's always the two of us + oftentimes folding bikes, camping gear, etc.. This means that we need a 4 seater. The other thing is that we want to go at least 150 kts, preferably faster.

I know that this all points towards a RV-10. The problem is, though, that our budget is <$100k.
A Velocity 173 or SE are therefore the only planes I can think of which would check all boxes and which are fairly common.

Now, my wife particularly doesn't like that we couldn't go with with a Velocity into turf strips and that also the runway of our current airport may be a bit on the short side with only 2,300 ft. It also seems that the older Velocities don't have a separate baggage compartment to speak of.

On the positive side, they are however a little bit faster than our Mooney and have two doors.

Are there any other positive aspects that I am missing? I heard that the noise level is supposedly lower inside the cabin, due to the pusher configuration. The cockpit width is about the same as in a Mooney, right?

Oliver
 
I don't know about the noise level (I still don't have an interior).

The 173 sits higher off the ground, and has larger tires so turf capable. Only a 173kt airplane but a 50kt stall speed and 1,500' landing distance. The issue is the single clamshell (or top loader) door. Some have been converted to dual gullwing doors. That's probably what you want. Just watch Barnstormers, Trade-A-Plane and the other usual sites.
 
donjohnston said:
I don't know about the noise level (I still don't have an interior).

The 173 sits higher off the ground, and has larger tires so turf capable. Only a 173kt airplane but a 50kt stall speed and 1,500' landing distance. The issue is the single clamshell (or top loader) door. Some have been converted to dual gullwing doors. That's probably what you want. Just watch Barnstormers, Trade-A-Plane and the other usual sites.
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I saw this 173 with dual doors and like it: https://www.barnstormers.com/ad_detail.php?id=1482782
I wasn't aware that they are turf capable and have only a single door as standard. Good to know.
 
German guy said:
I saw this 173 with dual doors and like it: https://www.barnstormers.com/ad_detail.php?id=1482782
I wasn't aware that they are turf capable and have only a single door as standard. Good to know.
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Dick Rutan flew the original LongEZ off of turf many times. Something to keep in mind is that anything that gets kicked up during the takeoff roll is going through the prop. Grass wouldn't be a big deal, but small rocks are a problem.
 
Note: I have only test flown a Velocity a few times and done some short flights with a friend who had one.
Velocity is much quieter than any other unpressurized piston I have been in (Cirrus, Mooney, Baron, Bonanza, A few Cessna...)
Only a Cessna high wing was easier to get in; both the front seats and the back seats. However, I would never hit my head on Velocity. :D

Tim
 
Frankly, I think my wife overrates the turf strip issue, since we land on turf probably less than 5 times per year and only on airstrips which will be within range of the Zenith that we are building.

I did some more reading and learned that the SE models apparently sit just as high as the 173 and have the same wing profile. I guess they would therefore also be suitable to occasionally go into a well maintained turf strip, if this remains a requirement by the boss. ;)

How would you compare the cabin space with a Mooney or some other more traditional aircraft?
 
genna said:
Take off roll was just longer than other planes(not other Velocitys). Most would lift around 1/2 mark, the V ran about 75% of the runway.
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One reason for the longer takeoff roll in any canard aircraft is the fact that the canard has to get flying first to then yank the main wing up to the angle that generates lift.
 
German guy said:
How would you compare the cabin space with a Mooney or some other more traditional aircraft?
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The smaller velocity - of which I am building - is technically as wide as a Piper Arrow in the front seats. However, there is a keel that is 4+ inches wide between the seats so it feels smaller.
Also, the sides of the fuselage curve in towards your head quicker than a certified airplane. You definitely should sit in one with the doors closed before committing. Visibility is not as good.

Think of these airplanes as sport cars - tighter fit - looks neat. A lot of kitplanes are like that.
 
I agree with @Datadriver in that you need to sit in one. Like @Datadriver I found the SUV/smaller version of Velocity to small for me (broad shoulders, 50in short jacket). However, the XL and V-Twin (they have the same fuselage) fit me very well.

Tim
 
Datadriver said:
One reason for the longer takeoff roll in any canard aircraft is the fact that the canard has to get flying first to then yank the main wing up to the angle that generates lift.
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Never had to yank the main wing up to get off the ground on mine. It just flies off the runway with a little back pressure on the stick.
 
@Datadriver Thank you. I discussed this with my wife, but failed in convincing her that a Velocity would be a good choice. I guess we'll either end up with a 2-seat RV or continue to fly our Mooney.
 
German guy said:
@Datadriver Thank you. I discussed this with my wife, but failed in convincing her that a Velocity would be a good choice. I guess we'll either end up with a 2-seat RV or continue to fly our Mooney.
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I sat in a Ovation and Velocity (Xl I think) on the same day. Ovation is a lot more cramped for me. Panel is too close. Sitting position is similar. I’m only 5-6.
 
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Check out the AeroCad AeroCanards. They have a lot of options. Their tubs are pre-molded and do not have the center keel, so the usable width is the actual width. Also, they have a lot of canopy options, including one that has more headroom width. I have yet to try one on, but it's really near the top of my short list.
 
CJones said:
It'll be hard to beat the RV-10 once you fly it. Acquisition cost should come down some if you're looking 5 years out - more new planes being flown every day. Lots of them being built and tons of support for them these days.
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Currently RV10 kit is about $55K. Add here your engine $35-45K, prop 5K and firewall forward parts $10K.
Avionics will add up another $25K for minimal IFR (Dynon). You can have flying RV10 under $150K and get the rest with the time. Where numbers $200+K comes from ? Who builds their RV10 and investing 200+ before start flying it?

I am building my RV10, started recently
 
genna said:
So what is out there in a 4 seat land? Looking for performance similar to SR22. IFR/Glass for under 200K. BRS is a bonus. Something that is well established, well supported, and easy to build for a newbie.

  • Lancair is too much plane and money
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Maybe reconsider a Lancair. The ES line is purported to be much easier to fly than other models. There is one completed Super ES for sale right now at under 100k:
https://lancairtalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5853
 
Vlad Mils said:
Currently RV10 kit is about $55K. Add here your engine $35-45K, prop 5K and firewall forward parts $10K.
Avionics will add up another $25K for minimal IFR (Dynon). You can have flying RV10 under $150K and get the rest with the time. Where numbers $200+K comes from ? Who builds their RV10 and investing 200+ before start flying it?

I am building my RV10, started recently
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Have fun with your RV-10 project. Mine is nearing completion. The amount of fiberglass work on the thing has been astounding compared to my RV-6...

From a cost perspective, the engine is $48k, the prop is $8k. A $150K total is doable, but really, really pushing the limits. Interior and paint are often $15K or more. Some spend a whole lot more.
 
I have never flown or been in a Velocity, but I am experienced in a Mooney which seems to me to be a lot better choice. And especially on resale a buyer may regard it
 
Bill Greenwood said:
I have never flown or been in a Velocity, but I am experienced in a Mooney which seems to me to be a lot better choice. And especially on resale a buyer may regard it
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I have only sat in a few Velocities and flown even fewer. Same for Mooney.
I would take pretty much any Velocity over Mooney in terms of comfort.

Tim
 
German guy said:
@Datadriver Thank you. I discussed this with my wife, but failed in convincing her that a Velocity would be a good choice. I guess we'll either end up with a 2-seat RV or continue to fly our Mooney.
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sounds like it’s time for a new wife
 
Bill Greenwood said:
I have never flown or been in a Velocity, but I am experienced in a Mooney which seems to me to be a lot better choice. And especially on resale a buyer may regard it
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Personally(based on my physique) Velocity XL(purchasing) vs Mooney(long body, non-turbo). I've never flown or been airborne in either.
Velocity is far more spacious inside.
Velocity is far more ergonomic for me
Velocity is faster
Velocity is cheaper to maintain
Velocity is cheaper to buy(for the same age)
Velocity has better useful load
Velocity is way easier to upgrade.
2 doors


Mooney is easier to find
Mooney is easier to sell(not necessarily more money, but easier)
Older Mooneys can be purchased for somewhat less money.
Even Older(though may not be long body) Mooneys are fully depreciated so they can actually increase in value depending on the market, but now we are talking 40yo planes.
Mooney has less build questions.
Mooney has great safety reputation
Mooney has much better short field performance
Easier to find mechanic

Resale value is going to be about the same for the SAME AGE airplane. Mid 2000s Mooneys aren't exactly money making machines and any new Mooney will drop value like a rock.

So, how is Mooney a better choice? It comes down to one's preference.

P.S. And I'm still a person that considers Mooney. Even if I can't reach the pedals
 
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They are two much different airplanes. Kind of like when I walk up to a Velocity it just doesn't grab me. just looks like someone went out of there way to try to make everything different mostly for the sake of difference. Now a younger person may see the Mooney as old fashioned. As for which is faster, there are some models of Mooney that are 220 knot airplanes, think the Ovation might be one, not sure, but there are very fast ones.
 
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Bill Greenwood said:
I have never flown or been in a Velocity, but I am experienced in a Mooney which seems to me to be a lot better choice. And especially on resale a buyer may regard it
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Apples to oranges comparison. The differences between Velocitys are as great as the differences between Mooneys. Got be more specific on which model you’re comparing.
 
Oddly enough my Velocity is undergoing its condition inspection at a Mooney service center right now. :D
 
Anybody care to comment on the velocity's baggage allowances? The wife said less volume than the Arrow's dedicated compartment is a no-go. Based on pictures from the internet it doesn't look like there's much volume for bags back there. Arrow's got 26 cubic feet, which is real nice. From my understanding the SE doesn't have a dedicated compartment, but rather uses cavities in the strakes, which won't work for actual luggage bags. XLs I have no idea what they can carry volume wise.

It's a family mission after all, otherwise I would have gone RV a long time ago LOL.
 
Bill Greenwood said:
They are two much different airplanes. Kind of like when I walk up to a Velocity it just doesn't grab me. just looks like someone went out of there way to try to make everything different mostly for the sake of difference. Now a younger person may see the Mooney as old fashioned. As for which is faster, there are some models of Mooney that are 220 knot airplanes, think the Ovation might be one, not sure, but there are very fast ones.
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Ovation is 197ktas, acclaim 242. From Mooney site.

Velocity XL: 205, Turbo XL:250

Turbos are both at 25Kft

Even Ovation is way outside my price range
 
hindsight2020 said:
Anybody care to comment on the velocity's baggage allowances? The wife said less volume than the Arrow's dedicated compartment is a no-go. Based on pictures from the internet it doesn't look like there's much volume for bags back there. Arrow's got 26 cubic feet, which is real nice. From my understanding the SE doesn't have a dedicated compartment, but rather uses cavities in the strakes, which won't work for actual luggage bags. XLs I have no idea what they can carry volume wise.

It's a family mission after all, otherwise I would have gone RV a long time ago LOL.
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SEs and 173s use the strakes for baggage, XLs use strakes and an area behind the back seats. Unless you’ve got pax in the back, just pile it on the seats.
 
I misread. it is the TLS which is 220knots and that is cruise, not top speed.
 
Velocity173 said:
SEs and 173s use the strakes for baggage, XLs use strakes and an area behind the back seats. Unless you’ve got pax in the back, just pile it on the seats.
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yeah, that's a non-starter for my mission. Thanks for the feedback nonetheless!
 
Velocity173 said:
You can fit 4 people and their bags in an Arrow?
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You know the answer to that. Of course not. Ours is just an issue of volume, not weight. We merely prefer a dedicated compartment with ample volume is all. It's all good.
 
kyleb said:
Have fun with your RV-10 project. Mine is nearing completion. The amount of fiberglass work on the thing has been astounding compared to my RV-6...

From a cost perspective, the engine is $48k, the prop is $8k. A $150K total is doable, but really, really pushing the limits. Interior and paint are often $15K or more. Some spend a whole lot more.
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Yes I am sure it should be doable and possible to fit in to that amount. We have some company here who sells re-manufactured engines IO-540 and the price is even better than you mentioned.
Also I am not looking yet at avionics since my airplane will only be ready in about 2-2.5 years. For avionics market that is alot of time. I am sure some new offers and new options will show up by the time I will be shopping for my glass panel.
 
Velocity173 said:
You can fit 4 people and their bags in an Arrow?
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We did. I flew an Arrow for a few years. The four of us went on trips in it. We even did a trip from Atlanta to northern WI and another to Cape Cod. Plus lots of shorter regional trips.
 
wayne said:
We did. I flew an Arrow for a few years. The four of us went on trips in it. We even did a trip from Atlanta to northern WI and another to Cape Cod. Plus lots of shorter regional trips.
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You were flying 4 FAA sized adults with full gas and bags in an Arrow?
 
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