310Q

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JOhnH

Touchdown! Greaser!
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A friend of mine is contemplating buying a 1974 Cessna 310Q from a neighbor of his.

TT ~ 4,000hrs
Both engines are at TBO, but owner A&P will install two 32hour IO470s and props.(I don't know where they are coming from)

Plane flies nice and handles well (as reported by my friend).
New interior and new glass.
It carries 163 gallons fuel with tip tanks
Deice boots.

Panel is older but has Garmin 430.

Offered price is $100k.

I have no pictures, but I was just wondering if this sounded reasonable.
It sounds great to me, but I am not very familiar with twins.
He lives in an airpark with a turf runway.
 
Better have a cherry paint job and a fantastic interior with a nice WAAS panel for that price.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Better have a cherry paint job and a fantastic interior with a nice WAAS panel for that price.
Click to expand...

Agreed. If the interior and paint and MX aren’t flawless, that’s too high in the depressed twin market.

And “32 hour engines” both of them? That’s very odd.
 
denverpilot said:
Agreed. If the interior and paint and MX aren’t flawless, that’s too high in the depressed twin market.

And “32 hour engines” both of them? That’s very odd.
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The plane currently has two engines at TBO. The (A&P) seller offered to replace them with two 32hr engine/props. Alternatively, I think he could buy the plane as-is for $35k.

Apparently, the plane is in good mechanical shape. The interior and glass is new. The panel is dated.
 
denverpilot said:
That’s a $15-$20 discount right there.
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I told him to factor in paying $25 to $50k to update the panel. Another $25-30k if it needs an A/P.

If it were me, I'd probably have a $100k in it (on top of purchase price) before long, but I keep thinking back to when Henning was trying to sell his 310.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Better have a cherry paint job and a fantastic interior with a nice WAAS panel for that price.
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If it had a cherry paint job, fantastic interior, nice WAAS panel and his 32 hour engines/props, it would probably be in the 130-150 range. That's just my unsolicited $0.02. Of course that would be somewhat dependent on the definition of a nice WAAS panel which varies among folks.

I do think that this plane is probably overpriced though. We don't have enough info to be sure what the value is. We'd need pics/details of the paint, interior, panel, de-ice boot condition, radar?, autopilot, background on engines/props (I agree with @coloradobluesky in call back when complete), heater installed, time on accessories and aux tanks to name a few.

Signed,
A Q guy
 
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Radar Contact said:
If it had a cherry paint job, fantastic interior, nice WAAS panel and his 32 hour engines/props, it would probably be in the 130-150 range. That's just my unsolicited $0.02. Of course that would be somewhat dependent on the definition of a nice WAAS panel which varies among folks...

Singed,
A Q guy
Click to expand...


I hope your valediction "Singed" is not some inadvertent commentary on your experience as a Twin Cessna owner. :D


singe
sinj/
verb
past tense: singed; past participle: singed
  1. burn (something) superficially or lightly...

    synonyms: scorch, burn, sear, char
    • be burned superficially.
 
GRG55 said:
I hope your valediction "Singed" is not some inadvertent commentary on your experience as a Twin Cessna owner. :D


singe
sinj/
verb
past tense: singed; past participle: singed
  1. burn (something) superficially or lightly...

    synonyms: scorch, burn, sear, char
    • be burned superficially.
Click to expand...
Not yet...just my hands moving faster than my brain. You'll have to ask me each year and we'll see how this constant aircraft rejuvenation process goes. After getting past the few previously deferred items and some wanted upgrades she seems to be doing well...for now. :)
 
Radar Contact said:
If it had a cherry paint job, fantastic interior, nice WAAS panel and his 32 hour engines/props, it would probably be in the 130-150 range. That's just my unsolicited $0.02. Of course that would be somewhat dependent on the definition of a nice WAAS panel which varies among folks.

I do think that this plane is probably overpriced though. We don't have enough info to be sure what the value is. We'd need pics/details of the paint, interior, panel, de-ice boot condition, radar?, autopilot, background on engines/props (I agree with @coloradobluesky in call back when complete), heater installed, time on accessories and aux tanks to name a few.

Signed,
A Q guy
Click to expand...

I don't think you could get 150k for a Q right now unless it was a 10/10 with a heck of a panel in it. Just my opinion though. You couldn't sell a good R model for 150 unless it had all the bells and whistles and at least a good panel if not a great one.

Turbo or non-turbo for the airplane in question? Why do the replacement engines have 32 hours and where did they come from and who overhauled them when? Known de-ice? Radar? Too many variables in the Twin Cessna market.
 
This thread got me looking at T310R prices on Controller. Surprised how much plane you can get for under $150,000. I've been seriously thinking it might be time to buy and I really like the speed/useful load of this aircraft. Of course, operating costs is the other part of the equation. Any of you 310 drivers care to give some average annual expenses.
 
FlyingTiger said:
This thread got me looking at T310R prices on Controller. Surprised how much plane you can get for under $150,000. I've been seriously thinking it might be time to buy and I really like the speed/useful load of this aircraft. Of course, operating costs is the other part of the equation. Any of you 310 drivers care to give some average annual expenses.
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I'm gonna guess the average keeping costs are triple the costs of a vanilla turbo'd aircraft. ($4-10,000/yr)....;) ....and yes, this caught my eye too, but, I don't need the extra engine to go fast and pay extra. :D
 
Z06_Mir said:
I don't think you could get 150k for a Q right now unless it was a 10/10 with a heck of a panel in it. Just my opinion though. You couldn't sell a good R model for 150 unless it had all the bells and whistles and at least a good panel if not a great one.
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There are a lot of people that prefer a Q to an R because of T hangar issues. In my case, I'd have to sell my hangar and get a considerably more expensive hangar to fit an R (not worth it for baggage in the nose to me). Additionally, many people seek out the 470's of a Q vs the 520's of an R as they seem to last longer with less problems. I agree, the Q would have to be a 10/10 to fetch that price and that's what I meant by saying "If it had a cherry paint job, fantastic interior, nice WAAS panel and his 32 hour engines/props.....that would be somewhat dependent on the definition of a nice WAAS panel which varies among folks". If I saw one that had all this with dual G500's (or the new TXi's), dual 750's, GTX345, EDM960, GWX70 Radar and a nice digital autopilot, I'd sell mine and buy it for 150 tomorrow. :) Back to reality...I'll just keep making mine how I want it piece by piece.
 
How old are the deice boots?

How old and what's the condition of the windshield hot plate?

Personally a 310 doesn't really seem like it would be the best plane for many missions.
 
James331 said:
How old are the deice boots?

How old and what's the condition of the windshield hot plate?

Personally a 310 doesn't really seem like it would be the best plane for many missions.
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I don't have those answers, but my initial question has pretty much been addressed. It sounds to me as though this may be a nice airplane, it is overpriced for the market. It is a nice airplane, but it isn't pristine and the cost to improve the panel will be significant. That, and I don't believe a 310 is really a very good fit for most of his missions.
 
FlyingTiger said:
This thread got me looking at T310R prices on Controller. Surprised how much plane you can get for under $150,000. I've been seriously thinking it might be time to buy and I really like the speed/useful load of this aircraft. Of course, operating costs is the other part of the equation. Any of you 310 drivers care to give some average annual expenses.
Click to expand...
I think @Twin_Flyer has a T310R and maybe he can help you with expenses. I have a NA Q so I'm not sure mine would be close enough? Over the last year I've just O/H'ed one fuel divider, replaced an alternator and repaired an exhaust crack. When I bought it I knew the props were old so I had to O/H them. I burn 20 gph LOP and about 25 ROP at 175 kts. I could run it faster with more fuel but choose not to. I know his speeds and burns are a bit different, maybe he can chime in.
 
JOhnH said:
I don't have those answers, but my initial question has pretty much been addressed. It sounds to me as though this may be a nice airplane, it is overpriced for the market. It is a nice airplane, but it isn't pristine and the cost to improve the panel will be significant. That, and I don't believe a 310 is really a very good fit for most of his missions.
Click to expand...

Price out new boots and a hot plate.

The panel doesn't sound bad if it's a /G with autopilot and everything works, unless you're going for a whizbang chasing the jones look how many pointless screens I have nonsense.

My biggest concern would be the FIKI and just the mission fit.
 
lessee....here's how I see it.

Engines.....$55-60K each
Interior & new windows..... $25K
Paint........$18K
WAAS panel....$65K

Total updates.....$228K

Total value after updates.....???? maybe $185-200K on a good day.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
lessee....here's how I see it.

Engines.....$55-60K each
Interior & new windows..... $25K
Paint........$18K
WAAS panel....$65K

Total updates.....$228K

Total value after updates.....???? maybe $185-200K on a good day.
Click to expand...
The plane will have new engines, interior and windows at an initial cost of $100k.

Add in $18k (paint) and $65k (panel) and outlay is at $183k for a plane that might be worth up to $185.
That isn't too bad if he can afford the care and feeding of a twin.
 
JOhnH said:
The plane will have new engines, interior and windows at an initial cost of $100k.

Add in $18k (paint) and $65k (panel) and outlay is at $183k for a plane that might be worth up to $185.
That isn't too bad if he can afford the care and feeding of a twin.
Click to expand...
I also....didn't include props and boots. Those can be breath taking costs as well.

A special buyer might like all that.....:D
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
WAAS panel....$65K
Click to expand...

I thought it had a 430? If it's a non WAAS unit that like 3k to WAAS it, where's the other $62,000?

Fearless Tower said:
Q’s don’t have hot plates. That’s an R model thing.
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I didn't know, so what does it do for windscreen anti ice? If they have boots it's gotta have something right?



So if someone has their heart set on a 310 it doesn't sound too bad, presuming everything in the panel works, has a AP and the FIKI stuff is all good.
 
James331 said:
I didn't know, so what does it do for windscreen anti ice? If they have boots it's gotta have something right?
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My full de-ice Q (and other's that are full) has boots on the wings and tail, hot props and alcohol windshield. The alcohol actually works pretty well. That was another deciding factor for me in the Q vs FIKI R debate I had. Considering the replacement for the hot plate is in excess of 20K, that was a no go for me. I fly for fun. I don't need FIKI. I fly in the Midwest...I wanted great ice escape options to increase the utility of the plane.
 
James331 said:
I thought it had a 430? If it's a non WAAS unit that like 3k to WAAS it, where's the other $62,000?
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Engine monitor, ADSB, Auto Pilot. Not $62k, but more than $3k too. Also, GAMI injectors to run LOP. (I suggested he get that thrown in with the price when the engines are swapped).
James331 said:
I didn't know, so what does it do for windscreen anti ice? If they have boots it's gotta have something right?
Click to expand...
Being in Florida, I know nothing about FIKI, except that we don't need it very often.
James331 said:
So if someone has their heart set on a 310 it doesn't sound too bad, presuming everything in the panel works, has a AP and the FIKI stuff is all good.
Click to expand...
I have advised him against it, but that was before I heard his wife was excited about it so they could take the slew of kids and grand kids on more trips. His current Diamond doesn't fit that mission at all. He could sell the Diamond and have money left over for avgas.
 
James331 said:
I thought it had a 430? If it's a non WAAS unit that like 3k to WAAS it, where's the other $62,000?
...
Click to expand...

Just for reference, the current price from Garmin to do a GNS WAAS upgrade has risen to $4400. :(
 
GRG55 said:
Just for reference, the current price from Garmin to do a GNS WAAS upgrade has risen to $4400. :(
Click to expand...

Dang! I forget what the original upgrade price was, I think it was in the $1700-$1900 range. All I know is we popped that puppy out and upgraded on that 1st upgrade program.
 
James331 said:
I didn't know, so what does it do for windscreen anti ice? If they have boots it's gotta have something right?
Click to expand...
The R’s are the only FIKI 310s.

The Q and earlier have alcohol anti-ice for the windscreen
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Better have a cherry paint job and a fantastic interior with a nice WAAS panel for that price.
Click to expand...
Really? with two fresh OH engines and props, and a GNS, it seems like if paint/interior are "OK" or better it's a good deal.

engine/prop is is what $80k by themselves?
 
FlyingTiger said:
This thread got me looking at T310R prices on Controller. Surprised how much plane you can get for under $150,000. I've been seriously thinking it might be time to buy and I really like the speed/useful load of this aircraft. Of course, operating costs is the other part of the equation. Any of you 310 drivers care to give some average annual expenses.
Click to expand...

Here's a couple of older threads discussing costs of piston twins, including James Dean's when he had his 310R:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/light-twin-owning-and-operating-costs.89350/

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/first-year-costs-to-run-a-310r.85587/
 
This popped up on FB today.

924b9c6a398e60a18c8fbff234c11948.jpg
 
Looks like a nice plane and pretty fair panel. But is 12,309 Hrs TT considered too much?
 
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