250 Knots IAS below 10,000 feet - is it adhered to?

Palmpilot said:
:confused2: The only exception I see to the speed limit inside class B (other than paragraph (d)) is for the 200 knot requirement in paragraph (b):
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The 250 knot speed limit is below 10,000’ msl. Now it’s true that most Class B sits within this restriction, but the Bravo is not what’s generating the limit. It’s a minor distinction, but here’s a practical example from just last night: landing SLC to the north on the QUENN 5 arrival, and I was descended by ATC to 10,000’. The ceiling of the Bravo is 12,000’, and I was already well within the lateral boundary. We were running late and I really had to pee. How fast do you suppose I was going? ;)
 
Larry in TN said:
The only situation where I've heard of them is on SIDs which specified a maximum speed above 10,000' until advised.
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Yeah I can see it happening in that situation. For the most part though, below 10 grand controllers just don’t care about the 250 kts. Like a cop who picks and chooses who they pull over for speeding.

On the other hand, pilots also need to be prepared to put on the brakes below 10 grand if needed for sep. Example, one time I had a Falcon 10 doing 360 kts at 6,000 ft and eating up a DH-8 in front of him. I simply told him that I needed him at 250 kts below 10,000 ft. Came back with a snotty “It’s 250 indicated...not a ground speed.” I knew damn well that he didn’t have (roughly) a 100 kt tail wind. I calmly came back with, “roger Falcon 345, turn left heading xxx for the sequence.” He canceled right after that. :D
 
Velocity173 said:
Yeah I can see it happening in that situation. For the most part though, below 10 grand controllers just don’t care about the 250 kts. Like a cop who picks and chooses who they pull over for speeding.

On the other hand, pilots also need to be prepared to put on the brakes below 10 grand if needed for sep. Example, one time I had a Falcon 10 doing 360 kts at 6,000 ft and eating up a DH-8 in front of him. I simply told him that I needed him at 250 kts below 10,000 ft. Came back with a snotty “It’s 250 indicated...not a ground speed.” I knew damn well that he didn’t have (roughly) a 100 kt tail wind. I calmly came back with, “roger Falcon 345, turn left heading xxx for the sequence.” He canceled right after that. :D
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He was just doing the Southwest 250!
 
"Must be a really localized tailwind I'm getting."
 
kayoh190 said:
The 250 knot speed limit is below 10,000’ msl. Now it’s true that most Class B sits within this restriction, but the Bravo is not what’s generating the limit. It’s a minor distinction, but here’s a practical example from just last night: landing SLC to the north on the QUENN 5 arrival, and I was descended by ATC to 10,000’. The ceiling of the Bravo is 12,000’, and I was already well within the lateral boundary.
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I agree.

We were running late and I really had to pee. How fast do you suppose I was going? ;)
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Pedal to the metal! :)
 
Exceeding 250 below 10,000 will trigger a FOQA event at any major airline. In addition if a loss of separation occurs because of a speed issue you can expect to be violated. It’s one of the few rules I see with a near 100% compliance rate at major airlines.
 
If I remember correctly it takes > 265 for more than 7 seconds to trigger fdap...and then they only sample at something like 10%. Standing by to be corrected by super type A airline pilot....
 
Depends on the airline and the aircraft. My airline is mid 80’s percent capture rate. I’m not sure what our trigger is.

Typical Type A airline pilot

Paul Schulten said:
If I remember correctly it takes > 265 for more than 7 seconds to trigger fdap...and then they only sample at something like 10%. Standing by to be corrected by super type A airline pilot....
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Well heck ATP standards are +- 10 knots so heck I figure you got latitude out to 260...see guys flying around at 240 below 10K wtf? It’s a JET man up and let’s go! Hehe
 
Paul Schulten said:
Well heck ATP standards are +- 10 knots so heck I figure you got latitude out to 260.
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Nope. Not when the restriction is a maximum.

That said, the autopilot systems on the CRJ, 737, 757, and 767 (the ones I've flown) aren't precise enough to always hold set airspeed within 10 knots so I'm not sure how they passed their ATP checkrides...

Boeing's FMS actually default to 240 knots below 10,000' on the VNAV descent page but 250 knot above 10,000' on the VNAV climb page. It'll still occasionally bust 250 knots, though. You have to watch it pretty close and be ready to "help". The violation notice would still go to the pilots, not the airplane.
 
Paul Schulten said:
Well heck ATP standards are +- 10 knots so heck I figure you got latitude out to 260...see guys flying around at 240 below 10K wtf? It’s a JET man up and let’s go! Hehe
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I hope you are still not flying for SWA and have long since retired... if you are still there, I guess my friends that fly at SWA were incorrect that the cowboy mentality there is all but gone.
 
Velocity173 said:
Never even heard of a PD being issued for speeding either.
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We’ve had some Navy pilots get notified locally for exceeding 250 below 10k in the past due to new, over-zealous controllers. Of course the PD went away and the controllers were eventually reassigned, but most of us are pretty careful to not push the envelope when we can help it.
 
Banjo33 said:
We’ve had some Navy pilots get notified locally for exceeding 250 below 10k in the past due to new, over-zealous controllers. Of course the PD went away and the controllers were eventually reassigned, but most of us are pretty careful to not push the envelope when we can help it.
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Most likely it’s an old crusty DOD Radar sup wanting to throw some weight around. Or could be an airfield manager wanting to crack down. Ours (helo guy) had us reporting anything over 350. Didn’t last long though.

Either way, depending on how fast you all were going, it does put ATC in a precarious situation. If the wrong person sees a flight coming in at 450+ kts for the break, they’re gonna wanna know why ATC didn’t write them up for a PD. Only excuse ATC could give would be they assumed it was needed as a min safe speed...which would be a joke. Like the time I had a couple F-15s doing 460 kts at 2,500 ft and they asked me if their speed was “OK.” No way I could approve of such a thing and no way they needed it as a min safe speed or operational necessity. But, they were subsonic so that’s all I cared about. ;)
 
Most fighters are waivered to 300 knots. Once inside a military airfields control zone speed in the break is at the pilots discretion. If you did a 300 knot break it would be at 2 G’s. The other nice thing about flying on the military side is pilot names are not released to the FAA so it’s tough for them to violate a pilot. The FAA will notify the command and ask that the individuals involved be counseled.
 
Jeff767 said:
Most fighters are waivered to 300 knots. Once inside a military airfields control zone speed in the break is at the pilots discretion. If you did a 300 knot break it would be at 2 G’s. The other nice thing about flying on the military side is pilot names are not released to the FAA so it’s tough for them to violate a pilot. The FAA will notify the command and ask that the individuals involved be counseled.
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Waivers are issued for individual aircraft. It’s not a blanket approval for all fighters or all military aircraft. Outside of a waiver and wanting to go in excess of 200 kts in a surface area of a C or D, you need ATC approval. Above 250 kts, they must specifically tell ATC it’s required for a “minimum speed.”

Outside of ATC controlled airspace, normal military ops are allowed based on the following restrictions:


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I can tell you we pay attention to it and can bust our annual recurrent ride if we bust it in the sim. But I've been told by TRACON controllers that they couldn't care less.
 
Some controllers still struggle to understand IAS vs GS. We were going to LBB a while ago, and ATC tells us he needs speed 240. We say ok, accelerating to 240. "No, I need you to SLOW DOWN to 240 knots, you are doing 285 knots".
We were at 220kts indicated...
 
Velocity173 said:
Waivers are issued for individual aircraft. It’s not a blanket approval for all fighters or all military aircraft. Outside of a waiver and wanting to go in excess of 200 kts in a surface area of a C or D, you need ATC approval. Above 250 kts, they must specifically tell ATC it’s required for a “minimum speed.”

Outside of ATC controlled airspace, normal military ops are allowed based on the following restrictions:
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If that's the case then they do a poor job of informing us in training and of mentioning it or in anyway enforcing it. Our regulations state 350KIAS on departure and that's what I've flown for 18 years. Not one controller has asked me my speed, to slow down or if I needed to be going that fast. The only time I've ever told someone I had to go faster than they wanted was when they told me something that was sub 225 kias on arrival.
 
My impression is that (1) controllers are a practical bunch, and (2) they don't like paperwork.
 
We adhere to the 250 rule. I’ve seen it INADVERTENTLY busted, but never intentionally.
 
EvilEagle said:
If that's the case then they do a poor job of informing us in training and of mentioning it or in anyway enforcing it. Our regulations state 350KIAS on departure and that's what I've flown for 18 years. Not one controller has asked me my speed, to slow down or if I needed to be going that fast. The only time I've ever told someone I had to go faster than they wanted was when they told me something that was sub 225 kias on arrival.
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Sounds like you’re complying with your flight manual to me. 91.117 exceptions are listed above in the 1978 waiver document. One thing not listed on it (but in effect), is an airspeed required or recommended in the flight manual for safe maneuverability. This also applies to civ and not just mil. If your speed is required or recommend in the aircraft’s flight manual, then yes, you can exceed the 200 in a C or D. You can exceed 250 in that case as well.

Now, If it’s not listed in the aircraft manual then you must specifically request to exceed the 200 kt limit and ATC will approve (traffic permitting). But, they can’t approve anything over 250 in the C, D unless informed that it’s required by the flight manual.

My point is, a military surface area doesn’t operate differently than FAA. They might have waivers for specific aircraft, but without them, they must comply with 91.117.

Not long ago my brother was telling me about B-1s in their airspace doing well over 250 kts. Said he had just got done working one doing 370 at low altitude. They have no waiver and the controller has no idea if they need it for a safe speed IAW the flight manual. So, they do what I’d did and look the other way. Does an F-15 need 450 plus kts for the overhead? I would think not but I’ve seen it. How about 600 kts (which I’ve also seen)? Most definitely not. Do most controllers care about prying into service regs / flight manual and becoming traffic cops? Nope.
 
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mtuomi said:
Some controllers still struggle to understand IAS vs GS. We were going to LBB a while ago, and ATC tells us he needs speed 240. We say ok, accelerating to 240. "No, I need you to SLOW DOWN to 240 knots, you are doing 285 knots".
We were at 220kts indicated...
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Most of them outgrow that soon enough
 
EvilEagle said:
If that's the case then they do a poor job of informing us in training and of mentioning it or in anyway enforcing it. Our regulations state 350KIAS on departure and that's what I've flown for 18 years. Not one controller has asked me my speed, to slow down or if I needed to be going that fast. The only time I've ever told someone I had to go faster than they wanted was when they told me something that was sub 225 kias on arrival.
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Yeah. Most of the places you are departing from, you are routine so ain’t gonna be no thang. Angle of climb you have it ain’t gonna show on the Controllers scope anyway which just does time and distance problems and gives ground speed. It’s kinda fun to watch an unrestricted climb target just kinda sit there while the Mode C goes ballistic.
 
luvflyin said:
Yeah. Most of the places you are departing from, you are routine so ain’t gonna be no thang. Angle of climb you have it ain’t gonna show on the Controllers scope anyway which just does time and distance problems and gives ground speed. It’s kinda fun to watch an unrestricted climb target just kinda sit there while the Mode C goes ballistic.
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Brings up something else that I always thought was unnecessary and that is informing ATC on the use of AB in the climb. Unless they wanted an unrestricted, it really didn’t matter to me. Airspace is already protected for the climb. Watching someone climb out with AB at 450 kts vs non AB at 330-350 isn’t a huge difference.
 
Velocity173 said:
Sounds like you’re complying with your flight manual to me. ....So, they do what I’d did and look the other way. Does an F-15 need 450 plus kts for the overhead? I would think not but I’ve seen it. How about 600 kts (which I’ve also seen)? Most definitely not. Do most controllers care about prying into service regs / flight manual and becoming traffic cops? Nope.
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I agree! I didn't want to say "yeah, well that's what our regs say so we don't have to follow the rules. nana nana boo boo" (or some other juvenile comment). I interpreted it differently when you said "there are no blanket waivers for military ops" and I immediately thought - well yes there is because it is in accordance with our regulations. Sounds like we were both on the same page but thinking different terminology.

No we don't need 450 for the overhead. Some guys (and controllers I've talked to) think - well just get there as fast as you can to get out of the way asap and let everything get back to normal. Others want to do just the minimum required speed to keep it closer to everyone else's speed. Different techniques (although one is obviously not IAW the regulation).

Our (F-15) regs say that you can slow to 250 on the first intermediate level off of an arrival (assuming our fuel weight doesn't demand a higher speed). When I'm going into busy places I typically do that, then when I switch to tower and get initial approved I speed back up to 300 for the break (regulation min speed for initial). The problem with slowing to 250 is typically that we can't do that AND descend - the jet doesn't like to slow down in a straight line. Often even at idle (which I rarely am because if you are at idle and your wingmen are pushing forward they don't have any power to work with - just speed brakes) I will accelerate past 250 if I do anything close to 1k'/min. We typically fly in excess of 4k'/min for both climb and descent so guys aren't used to planning descents at such a shallow angle and airspeed. Doesn't mean they shouldn't do it - they are just busy practicing a million other things. When ATC gives us descents at the same time they give the airline guys, we can't make the gradient AND be less than 250 without hosing your wingmen. If you think it's screwing up your pattern to have one formation going 300 - wait till that breaks up into 4 single-ships going 300!

When they do that arrival into DFW or wherever for the first time they are behind. We don't have GPS in the jet so when you guys give us "proceed direct FUTBOL" that doesn't do jack squat for us. The flight lead is now breaking out a 6' long map in a 4' wide cockpit while clearing for traffic, monitoring his wingmen and navigating while trying to get a call in on the UHF radio without being able to tell where the dead time on freq is. Once he finds the point on the map (we just got EFB's so that's a HUGE help) he'll have to get the lat/long then punch that into the jet's INS then steer to it before having guidance to proceed direct. If it's the arrival he's planned/filed then he might have that guidance already in the system but with the way arrivals get changed around so often it's not likely. Yeah, yeah I'm whinning a little bit - but also trying to inform guys that just assume we can do the same stuff that airliners do. We aren't designed for that so it's more workload on everyone (ATC, airline guys and the fighter dudes). Thankfully in my experience, ATC has been very accommodating for the most part and minimized the impact to everyone. Kudos!
 
EvilEagle said:
I agree! I didn't want to say "yeah, well that's what our regs say so we don't have to follow the rules. nana nana boo boo" (or some other juvenile comment). I interpreted it differently when you said "there are no blanket waivers for military ops" and I immediately thought - well yes there is because it is in accordance with our regulations. Sounds like we were both on the same page but thinking different terminology.

No we don't need 450 for the overhead. Some guys (and controllers I've talked to) think - well just get there as fast as you can to get out of the way asap and let everything get back to normal. Others want to do just the minimum required speed to keep it closer to everyone else's speed. Different techniques (although one is obviously not IAW the regulation).

Our (F-15) regs say that you can slow to 250 on the first intermediate level off of an arrival (assuming our fuel weight doesn't demand a higher speed). When I'm going into busy places I typically do that, then when I switch to tower and get initial approved I speed back up to 300 for the break (regulation min speed for initial). The problem with slowing to 250 is typically that we can't do that AND descend - the jet doesn't like to slow down in a straight line. Often even at idle (which I rarely am because if you are at idle and your wingmen are pushing forward they don't have any power to work with - just speed brakes) I will accelerate past 250 if I do anything close to 1k'/min. We typically fly in excess of 4k'/min for both climb and descent so guys aren't used to planning descents at such a shallow angle and airspeed. Doesn't mean they shouldn't do it - they are just busy practicing a million other things. When ATC gives us descents at the same time they give the airline guys, we can't make the gradient AND be less than 250 without hosing your wingmen. If you think it's screwing up your pattern to have one formation going 300 - wait till that breaks up into 4 single-ships going 300!

When they do that arrival into DFW or wherever for the first time they are behind. We don't have GPS in the jet so when you guys give us "proceed direct FUTBOL" that doesn't do jack squat for us. The flight lead is now breaking out a 6' long map in a 4' wide cockpit while clearing for traffic, monitoring his wingmen and navigating while trying to get a call in on the UHF radio without being able to tell where the dead time on freq is. Once he finds the point on the map (we just got EFB's so that's a HUGE help) he'll have to get the lat/long then punch that into the jet's INS then steer to it before having guidance to proceed direct. If it's the arrival he's planned/filed then he might have that guidance already in the system but with the way arrivals get changed around so often it's not likely. Yeah, yeah I'm whinning a little bit - but also trying to inform guys that just assume we can do the same stuff that airliners do. We aren't designed for that so it's more workload on everyone (ATC, airline guys and the fighter dudes). Thankfully in my experience, ATC has been very accommodating for the most part and minimized the impact to everyone. Kudos!
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Good thing the AF wised up to EFBs. We have them at work but for what I do, it’s not much use. Would have liked them in the Army though. They’ve had them for about 5 years now. Hear they’re sneaking in portable ADS-B in antennas also! ;)
 
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FOQA depends on how the airline has it set up. My first airline only had 1/3 or so of the tails equipped. They “conveniently” left out which tails those were. :rolleyes:

I’ve seen a MX waiver request come through to waive 91.117. Some repair shop needed to fly at a speed approaching plaid after some type of repair job.
 
EvilEagle said:
...The flight lead is now breaking out a 6' long map in a 4' wide cockpit while clearing for traffic, monitoring his wingmen and navigating while trying to get a call in on the UHF radio without being able to tell where the dead time on freq is. Once he finds the point on the map (we just got EFB's so that's a HUGE help) he'll have to get the lat/long then punch that into the jet's INS then steer to it before having guidance to proceed direct....
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Yikes! :eek2:
 
Velocity173 said:
Good thing the AF wised up to EFBs. We have them at work but for what I do, it’s not much use. Would have liked them in the Army though. They’ve had them for about 5 years now. Hear they’re sneaking in portable ADS-B in antennas also! ;)
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Yep, welcome to 2012 in my Bonanza USAF! Bout time they got on the EFB train. We have a bunch of Stratus 3s's at work now too.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I hope you are still not flying for SWA and have long since retired... if you are still there, I guess my friends that fly at SWA were incorrect that the cowboy mentality there is all but gone.
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Whoa there sluggo super pilot...it’s a JOKE, geez. Yes doing 260 below 10 would certainly put you in harms way, oh no! Wow gonna be a long month with you.....lighten up Francis!
 
You’re right. It took years of practice, but I was finally able to figure out how to use all my super pilot skills to actually slow the aircraft to 250 before descending below 10,000 ft, you know, like the rules require me to do. But you do you, cowboy.

Sure, it’s a joke... we’re never seen SWA doing stuff that other airlines just shake their heads at. I know, I know... just fly it like a -300.

It’s a long miserable month for my FOs. Thirty days of flying 250 knots below 10k and stabilized approaches. Imagine the horror... I’m surprised I’m not on everyone’s bid-avoid list.

“Logbook”
 
Ok, good for you! There is nothing inherently “safe” about 250/10, it’s just an arbitrary speed for ATC. Throw in winds, TAS, variations in Aircraft, it’s quite a capricious thing, just like Mach number. My dad has some great stories of flying the DC-9 for Delta years ago before the 250/10 limit, they would do 320 or so down low tower to tower in South Georgia. Thank goodness he lived through it! Remember about 25 years ago when HOuston did a test and waived the limit? Was that Unsafe? I fly 250 below 10 too, nothing magical about it, but it is fun to joke about a silly government rule! Wow.
 
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