210 Grenades on T/O guy makes the impossible turn.

Glad it worked out for him. Neat video with several observations:
- I’m curious at the sudden pitch up right at the point of failure. I’ve never had an actual engine failure - is that a reaction from sudden loss of airspeed?
- He leaves out the one notch of flaps the whole time. I’m curious as to whether flaps up may provide a better glide? Albeit at a higher glide speed… or it’s just too low to the ground to mess with?
- I also have mixed feeling about the timing of gear down. I suppose the second I’m aligned with the landing zone, I’d be afraid I’d forget the gear myself
- Seems like he’s going through a breathing routine; perhaps as to not hold his breath or hyperventilate?
- Really doesn’t sound like the engine is producing much thrust at all. Just a bunch of parts rattling around - can’t be more than a few pounds.

I also wonder if there would be an insurance (warranty?) market for something like the 1st 100 hours after overhaul. How much would you pay not to have to buy a new engine? Alternatively, would you choose an engine shop over others if they offered this?
 
Bill said:
Depends on the airport. Our home drone isn’t forgiving of an early engine out, just the way it is.

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“Home ‘droMe.” As in “aerodrome.” DroMe rhymes with home. Drone doesn’t sound cool, doesn’t make sense, and sounds like something an eejit “journalist” would write. We’re pilots: let’s get it right. ;)

Sucks about the OP’s engine.
 
FORANE said:
I've been reading a bit on proper engine break in procedure lately as my motor is currently getting new rings all around.
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FYI: Below is the run-in/break-in procedure specific to your Titan. Keep in mind "run-in" can be more important than "break-in" if you don't use a test stand. The OP was performing the run-in procedure which per all the guidance limits the ground run time to usually around 15-20 minutes in incremental steps and then calls for flying it. Most engines received from OH shops have had the run-in performed in a test stand. It's one of the "cons" in performing field only OHs without the benefit of using a test stand or test club/shroud mounted on the aircraft.
http://www.continental.aero/xPublications/xService Bulletins/Experimental PMA/E-SB003/
 
wanttaja said:
As Doc Chien pointed out, this was *not* a classic "Impossible Turn"... he returned to a different runway.

I saw a 150 pull off the "Impossible Turn" a couple of years back, though in that case, the engine was still developing power.

I've recently been running an in-depth analysis on homebuilt accidents stemming from engine failures. About 32% of fixed-wing homebuilt accidents begin with an engine failure, and in about 16% of those, the pilot stalls while attempting the emergency landing. When the pilot DOES stall, over 60% of the cases are fatal. So please, keep your airspeed up.

I've been looking at the "Impossible turn" for this analysis. Obviously, the ability to pull it off depends on the aircraft's location and altitude when the decision is made. With my airplane, for instance, I think the engine-off glide angle is steeper than the full-power climb angle...which makes it mathematically unlikely. But, of course, a higher-performance aircraft, a little further from the airport, would have a better chance.

I did a little diagram to illustrate the sequence. I was certainly aware that a simple 180 degree turn would not suffice, but what caught my attention is the fact that the runway is BEHIND and ABOVE the pilot for much of the maneuver.
View attachment 102136
This makes the maneuver more difficult, especially with a high-wing aircraft . The runway isn't apparent in the "normal" orientation until one is well into the maneuver itself.

Second factor that occurred to me is that this is very difficult to train for, in a real airplane. This isn't just a 270-degree-turn followed by a 90 degree turn; it involves maneuvering at low altitude and low airspeed *in relation to a ground reference*. You can make the turns at 1500 feet, but you can't really tell how well you would have lined back up on the runway again.

I did run a test at altitude in my airplane, and was surprised at how much altitude I lost (700 feet). I'll pick the softest thing straight ahead or (slightly) off to the sides, please....:)

My homebuilt 2011-2020 data set shows a total of 172 engine failures on initial climb. Thirteen accidents occurred when the pilot tried the turn, about 7.5%. Of course, there's no data on *successful* performance of the turn, either.

Ron Wanttaja
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Where is the wind in your example?
 
kaiser said:
Glad it worked out for him. Neat video with several observations:
- I’m curious at the sudden pitch up right at the point of failure. I’ve never had an actual engine failure - is that a reaction from sudden loss of airspeed?
- He leaves out the one notch of flaps the whole time. I’m curious as to whether flaps up may provide a better glide? Albeit at a higher glide speed… or it’s just too low to the ground to mess with?
- I also have mixed feeling about the timing of gear down. I suppose the second I’m aligned with the landing zone, I’d be afraid I’d forget the gear myself
- Seems like he’s going through a breathing routine; perhaps as to not hold his breath or hyperventilate?
- Really doesn’t sound like the engine is producing much thrust at all. Just a bunch of parts rattling around - can’t be more than a few pounds.

I also wonder if there would be an insurance (warranty?) market for something like the 1st 100 hours after overhaul. How much would you pay not to have to buy a new engine? Alternatively, would you choose an engine shop over others if they offered this?
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Best glide is always clean. Had a lot going on and probably failed to clean it up. Not second-guessing that part.

Regarding warranty, it's probably dependent on a lot of things. But a catastrophic failure 10 minutes after first start up. I think the shop would warranty it since they'd most likely get sued out of business if that turned fatal. Bare minimum you turn it into your insurance who goes after the shops insurance.
 
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Did anyone watch his previous video on what they actually did to his engine? Replaced lifters due to pitting/spalling. Replaced one push rod and then flushed the engine because he didn't have 50-60k for a full blown overhaul. Then says the 500 hour engine won't make it to the 1600 hour tbo. Makes things a little more murky as to what happened internally.
 
bbchien said:
All youse guys who say you can do it from 600- NB he did NOT return to the takeoff runway. That made return possible from 600!
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Yeah. Departed 30 and it looked like roughly about Rwy 09 for the landing. Didn't looked like he had to work it at all to get it down. Say about maybe a 90 degree intersection to about Rwy 03 may have had a different outcome. I'm thinking the turn back was a good decision though rather than the ol' straight ahead within 30 dgrees rule of thumb thang
 
kaiser said:
Glad it worked out for him. Neat video with several observations:
- I’m curious at the sudden pitch up right at the point of failure. I’ve never had an actual engine failure - is that a reaction from sudden loss of airspeed?
- He leaves out the one notch of flaps the whole time. I’m curious as to whether flaps up may provide a better glide? Albeit at a higher glide speed… or it’s just too low to the ground to mess with?
- I also have mixed feeling about the timing of gear down. I suppose the second I’m aligned with the landing zone, I’d be afraid I’d forget the gear myself
- Seems like he’s going through a breathing routine; perhaps as to not hold his breath or hyperventilate?
- Really doesn’t sound like the engine is producing much thrust at all. Just a bunch of parts rattling around - can’t be more than a few pounds.

I also wonder if there would be an insurance (warranty?) market for something like the 1st 100 hours after overhaul. How much would you pay not to have to buy a new engine? Alternatively, would you choose an engine shop over others if they offered this?
Click to expand...
Hmm. A nice prop bending just scratchin the paint belly landing might have been a good decision. Ain't sayin he should have thought of it in the moment, just some food for thought.
 
My observations, which are worth what you paid for them....

Light colored smoke possibly coming from exhaust.

No noticeable oil dripping from plane.

No noticeable oil smears on side of plane.

No noticeable oil around the holes in the block.

No noticeable oil on the parts protruding from the block.

No signs of oil on bearing surface of crank in the one clear picture. The crank journal looks as if it has been hot, possibly from lack of oil.

Conclusion:

I need to get a life....

Or, how rare is it for an engine to come from together without oil everywhere....EVERYWHERE..
 
luvflyin said:
Hmm. A nice prop bending just scratchin the paint belly landing might have been a good decision. Ain't sayin he should have thought of it in the moment, just some food for thought.
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They ain't gonna pay for a new case for a prop strike. Just for example.
 
Lachlan said:
“Home ‘droMe.” As in “aerodrome.” DroMe rhymes with home. Drone doesn’t sound cool, doesn’t make sense, and sounds like something an eejit “journalist” would write. We’re pilots: let’s get it right. ;)

Sucks about the OP’s engine.
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Dude, iPhone autocorrect. I typed drome, it substituted drone.

“Lighten up, Francis!”
 
Zeldman said:
My observations, which are worth what you paid for them....

Light colored smoke possibly coming from exhaust.

No noticeable oil dripping from plane.

No noticeable oil smears on side of plane.

No noticeable oil around the holes in the block.

No noticeable oil on the parts protruding from the block.

No signs of oil on bearing surface of crank in the one clear picture. The crank journal looks as if it has been hot, possibly from lack of oil.

Conclusion:

I need to get a life....

Or, how rare is it for an engine to come from together without oil everywhere....EVERYWHERE..
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I thought it was lucky not to have any on the windscreen. But damn that's a good observation. Could it be that simple?
 
Racerx said:
I thought it was lucky not to have any on the windscreen. But damn that's a good observation. Could it be that simple?
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If only we could ask the pilot if he actually checked the oil dipstick before takeoff. Maybe we will learn that if he makes another video.
 
Bell206 said:
FYI: Below is the run-in/break-in procedure specific to your Titan. Keep in mind "run-in" can be more important than "break-in" if you don't use a test stand. The OP was performing the run-in procedure which per all the guidance limits the ground run time to usually around 15-20 minutes in incremental steps and then calls for flying it. Most engines received from OH shops have had the run-in performed in a test stand. It's one of the "cons" in performing field only OHs without the benefit of using a test stand or test club/shroud mounted on the aircraft.
http://www.continental.aero/xPublications/xService Bulletins/Experimental PMA/E-SB003/
Click to expand...


I saw that and read it. The relevant pages from the link I posted earlier was sent to me by James ball of Titan. Makes me wonder what to follow. To make matters more confusing, my cylinders are nickel carbide which in reading those guidelines get referred to a completely different break-in guidelines.
 
FORANE said:
I saw that and read it. The relevant pages from the link I posted earlier was sent to me by James ball of Titan. Makes me wonder what to follow. To make matters more confusing, my cylinders are nickel carbide which in reading those guidelines get referred to a completely different break-in guidelines.
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I didn't read the procedures, but Lycoming also recommends short ground runs after a rebuild IF you didn't do a test stand run. The concern is glazing the cylinders and the rings not seating if you do ground runs.
 
Bell206 said:
If he goes by JB, then get on the phone and don't hang up until you're un-confused on the matter. Good guy. Too important a step for a long-lasting engine to scrimp on.
Click to expand...


Yes that's the guy, JB
 
wanttaja said:
Good point...I'm assuming it's right down the departure runway, so the pilot has a downwind landing.
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A strong headwind will affect where the plane is relative to the runway's length before and after making the turn. A crosswind will effect how much you have to turn. The last item on the glider pretakeoff checklist is to observe the crosswind so you know which way to turn (into the wind) if the rope breaks.
 
Zeldman said:
My observations, which are worth what you paid for them....

Light colored smoke possibly coming from exhaust.

No noticeable oil dripping from plane.

No noticeable oil smears on side of plane.

No noticeable oil around the holes in the block.

No noticeable oil on the parts protruding from the block.

No signs of oil on bearing surface of crank in the one clear picture. The crank journal looks as if it has been hot, possibly from lack of oil.

Conclusion:

I need to get a life....

Or, how rare is it for an engine to come from together without oil everywhere....EVERYWHERE..
Click to expand...
Around time 5:35, just after full power and starting the ground roll, he notes that he checked the temperatures and pressures and all were in the green. So if true that would seem to indicate it has enough oil to still generate pressure after that taxi roll.

His comments in the video however are post commentary and not his live cockpit audio. This video with post-commentary is probably going to make for some fun if the lawyers get involved as its scripted after the incident. I hope they don't need to get involved.

During the run-up prop check I think he pulled the throttle or mixture unintentionally. Can't see what that might have hurt.

He did keep his cool though and that crossing runway saved everything but the motor!
 
Grum.Man said:
I just watched some tidbits of his other videos. This engine has been apart 3 times this year for making metal. How can you buy such a nice airplane and still be so cheap with maintenance.
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Same reason he repeatedly got the wrong knob while trying to adjust the prop, etc…
 
How is the load different on the engine of a static plane vs moving? If anything I'd think the engine load on a static plane would be higher?
 
Hengelo said:
How is the load different on the engine of a static plane vs moving? If anything I'd think the engine load on a static plane would be higher?
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Cooling is the issue on the ground. You probably don't get adequate cooling making extended runs at 75-100% on the ground. And you need that much power to properly seat the rings.
 
Grum.Man said:
I just watched some tidbits of his other videos. This engine has been apart 3 times this year for making metal. How can you buy such a nice airplane and still be so cheap with maintenance.
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I think this should be on anyone's radar when buying an airplane. He said he didn't have the money for the rebuild he needed. Now he has no choice.
 
This seems like something that could be addressed as part of the rebuild; some kind of static setup with both adequate time at high power and sufficient cooling. Seems crazy to me that the only solution is a high risk flight scenario.
 
I guess I'm a little confused....hasn't he had the plane back for over 6 months, with several videos and several flights inbetween? why would he still be concerned with "break-in runups" ?
 
Hengelo said:
This seems like something that could be addressed as part of the rebuild; some kind of static setup with both adequate time at high power and sufficient cooling. Seems crazy to me that the only solution is a high risk flight scenario.
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It's not really that high a risk if the person doing the work is careful and does it right. If I had someone else do my overhaul, then they would be testing it before I flew it. The A&P that assisted me in my overhaul was in the right seat on the first flight. Skin in the game.

I went to a local (highly respected) professional overhaul shop and watched them working on engines for an afternoon. After watching that I decided to do it myself.
 
Hengelo said:
This seems like something that could be addressed as part of the rebuild; some kind of static setup with both adequate time at high power and sufficient cooling. Seems crazy to me that the only solution is a high risk flight scenario.
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Ain't hard, but does take dedicated facilities that small shops don't have.

The big players have test cells with forced air engine cooling, dynamometers, etc. They will run your engine in for an hour or more, depending. Then box it up and ship it to you.
 
eman1200 said:
I guess I'm a little confused....hasn't he had the plane back for over 6 months, with several videos and several flights inbetween? why would he still be concerned with "break-in runups" ?
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No he states at the beginning that he just got it back from having a bottom overhaul done due to low oil pressure. Here are the sequence of events according to his videos.

Goes into annual after 6 months and 100 hours, discover metal in the oil and damaged lifters. Replaced lifters
Some months later more metal is found and he replaces lifters and cam
Then it develops low oil pressure so they do a tear down and a "bottom overhaul" which really just sounds like they replaced bearings, cam, lifter, and rod bolts, honed the cylinders and this was the first flight.
 
He comments that the "engine was flushed" after the metal in oil findings. I can tell you from experience, there is no amount of flushing that will get all the metal out of the engine. If you find that much metal, your only decision should be to completely disassemble the engine and mechanically clean it. I went through a can of carb cleaner and half a roll of shop towels trying to clean an O-200 oil pan of metal.
 
Grum.Man said:
No he states at the beginning that he just got it back from having a bottom overhaul done due to low oil pressure. Here are the sequence of events according to his videos.

Goes into annual after 6 months and 100 hours, discover metal in the oil and damaged lifters. Replaced lifters
Some months later more metal is found and he replaces lifters and cam
Then it develops low oil pressure so they do a tear down and a "bottom overhaul" which really just sounds like they replaced bearings, cam, lifter, and rod bolts, honed the cylinders and this was the first flight.
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Maybe I will learn something today...for the mechanics out there, what from that list of repairs would actually address failing oil pressure?
 
Sinistar said:
Maybe I will learn something today...for the mechanics out there, what from that list of repairs would actually address failing oil pressure?
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I'm not sure how complete his list of stuff replaced during the bottom overhaul is. New bearings could help oil pressure, I doubt they replaced the pump it's self. Metal could have obstructed the oil pressure regulator. Clogged oil passage, it's hard to say what one thing fixed it without a more detailed writeup or video of the teardown.
 
If I were having oil pressure issues and I had the case split, I certainly would replace the oil pump impellers. They aren’t that expensive.
 
Salty said:
If I were having oil pressure issues and I had the case split, I certainly would replace the oil pump impellers. They aren’t that expensive.
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Once you've split the case, jeez, you're a long way down the road. It really would be interesting to see what work was done in there. For me, once the case is split, you're in the "while I'm in here I might as well..." mode, so spend a few thousand more bucks to put it to bed for the next 20 years.
 
kyleb said:
Once you've split the case, jeez, you're a long way down the road. It really would be interesting to see what work was done in there. For me, once the case is split, you're in the "while I'm in here I might as well..." mode, so spend a few thousand more bucks to put it to bed for the next 20 years.
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Not to derail but the previous owner of one of my planes didn't want to spend the extra $2500 to get a "full overhaul" despite almost everything being replaced so I have an engine with 1400 hours instead of 900.
 
Serious question: does the temperature of the case, cylinders, bolts, studs, etc factor into longevity/strength/reliability of an engine? Example- an engine overhauled in a cold hangar (unheated, Winter in the northeast) vs a heated shop (68F, all materials/components at shop temp at time of assembly.) So then, would an engine assembled (fasteners torqued) at cold temperatures (say under 30F) suffer from any issues at warmer temperatures? (Built in the Winter, torqued with cold everything, issues in warm weather with warmer <minimally larger> parts?) Would the tension on the bolts be inadequate at operating temps if it was built cold? Seems like it could be a factor to consider. (Cold torque specs vs hot? Such a thing for engine builds?)
 
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