2021 Airventure Poll

[flyingron]

Surface transfer is wildly overhyped. The stuff is transferred by aerolized droplets. I'm not particularly worried about the newer shower trailers in vintage. We'll travel as we always do, get there probably a week before the show opens and stay until the bitter end (departing Monday morning after it's over).

Only complication this year is grandbaby #3 is due right about that time so I may take the Navion up solo and my wife may fly in commercial.

 

[Arnold]

There are indeed lots of people but the place is huge. And going earlier in the week means smaller crowds. I won’t disagree with the “expensive” part - but so is Disney, skiing, or other popular pastimes.

Not sure I’d agree with the “can be seen elsewhere”, though I haven’t personally been to Sun N Fun (after 12 years of OSH, SnF seems like it would be the actual “can be seen elsewhere” to me): seeing a dozen or more Mustangs parked together in a field or a whole field of RVs or a few rows of beautiful Cessna 195’s parked together or watching powered parachutes at sunrise in a continuous loop like an amusement ride or...

The first year we went I had very high expectations. It exceeded those considerably.

Although flying in is safer than it sounds, driving in is also very reasonable. Again, earlier in the show is probably better.

As for the OP, I personally think it’ll be a go. I think there will be tremendous pressure to make it happen - within EAA (for financial reasons), EAA membership, and the local communities (also for financial reasons). Covid will still be a factor but the vaccine is helping a lot, as is just the natural progression of disease spread.

We plan to go, as part of a Mass Arrival group, and camp together. The biggest risk will probably be the shower buildings in the North 40 but we’re vaccinated and have already gotten the virus so we should be safe. Plus we have no real risk factors.

But back to your comment, I highly suggest going. It’s a big deal for a reason.

Thank you for the considered response.

 

[Flocker]

I heard from a reliable source today that the SOS Bar will be open for business.

 

[kyleb]

44 years aviating and I've never been. Here is my take - crowded, expensive, dangerously high traffic volumes, everything there can be seen elsewhere.

Probably best you don't go.

 

[schmookeeg]

44 years aviating and I've never been. Here is my take - crowded, expensive, dangerously high traffic volumes, everything there can be seen elsewhere.

I think it's worth doing at least once. It's a concentration of aviation, aviating, and aviators that is far greater than the sum of its parts IMO. There are nooks and crannies of just-plain-cool stuff EVERYWHERE to discover, and which do not exist anywhere else so readily. My own favorites are the fly market and the antique aviation bookseller. Browsing old books and magazines, some from the 1910s and 1920s is just awesome to me, and something I can't replicate at that scale anywhere.

The fly-in arrival is another thing altogether, and while it is amazing to see in action and be a part of without incident, it is a "yellow alert" slog all the way through the procedure, and for me, it was an equal mix of pride in our ATC systems and personnel, and abject terror worrying about spacing with the bugsmasher in front of me, or the dude that missed his call to turn base and I'm behind HIM headed to Lake Winnebago, and worried about the result. I can absolutely see arriving via airlines or driving in from a remote spot instead of flying in. I don't think parking your personal plane in the mud, nor camping in a tent with the masses is a required part of the experience. I am one who dislikes camping intensely, though. Others almost certainly derive bonus joy from the evening socializing and shenanigans.

$0.02

 

[wayne]

I doubt I'll make it, but I've never made it; so obviously not a priority for me. We're planning on going to WI sometime this year, maybe a two or three times. If it happens to be during AirVenture I may drive up for a day.

Too many other trips planned. Plus some events will not held thus year and other limits, so not the best year for a first visit.

My wife has family and friends in WI, so when I do go I'll drive in. I'd worry too much about a prop strike or more likely issues with soft soil or taxiing with low wheel pants.



Wayne

 

[tsts4]

I'd worry too much about a prop strike or more likely issues with soft soil or taxiing with low wheel pants.

What do you fly? I’ve flown in the past 5 years and I don’t understand your concerns. I get not wanting to mix it up in the VFR arrival — that’s one reason I’ve opted to get a reservation and fly the IFR (way easier IMO). But prop strikes and soft grounds causing wheel pant issues don’t come close to making my list of concerns. IMO soft grounds are mainly an issue for the roads throughout Scholler than any of the aircraft parking/camping areas.

 

[Llewtrah381]

I think it's worth doing at least once. It's a concentration of aviation, aviating, and aviators that is far greater than the sum of its parts IMO. There are nooks and crannies of just-plain-cool stuff EVERYWHERE to discover, and which do not exist anywhere else so readily. My own favorites are the fly market and the antique aviation bookseller. Browsing old books and magazines, some from the 1910s and 1920s is just awesome to me, and something I can't replicate at that scale anywhere.

The fly-in arrival is another thing altogether, and while it is amazing to see in action and be a part of without incident, it is a "yellow alert" slog all the way through the procedure, and for me, it was an equal mix of pride in our ATC systems and personnel, and abject terror worrying about spacing with the bugsmasher in front of me, or the dude that missed his call to turn base and I'm behind HIM headed to Lake Winnebago, and worried about the result. I can absolutely see arriving via airlines or driving in from a remote spot instead of flying in. I don't think parking your personal plane in the mud, nor camping in a tent with the masses is a required part of the experience. I am one who dislikes camping intensely, though. Others almost certainly derive bonus joy from the evening socializing and shenanigans.

$0.02

Agree with all but the (Fisk) arrival shouldn’t be feared - just respected. ATC does a fantastic job of turning potential chaos into a surprisingly orderly process. Again, earlier in the week is totally different than the last weekend. Judiciously pick your arrival time and it’s a bucket-list experience that won’t traumatize one.

All that said, if one is really interested in going, look into the Mass Arrivals. Bonanzas (the biggest), Cessnas, Cherokees, Cirruses, Mooneys, and RVs all have these. They’re “in formation” but training is required and straightforward. With these groups you bypass the Fisk process and make a lot of new friends with similar aircraft.

 

[kyleb]

What do you fly? I’ve flown in the past 5 years and I don’t understand your concerns. I get not wanting to mix it up in the VFR arrival — that’s one reason I’ve opted to get a reservation and fly the IFR (way easier IMO). But prop strikes and soft grounds causing wheel pant issues don’t come close to making my list of concerns.

Seriously, Todd is right. I've never seen wheel pant damage at Oshkosh. I can't say it doesn't happen, but the RV crowd has pretty tightly fitted and low wheel pants, and I've never seen an airplane that had a problem.

That said, Todd needs to man-up and fly the VFR arrival. I've done it 20-25 times and haven't scared myself yet.

 

[tsts4]

That said, Todd needs to man-up and fly the VFR arrival. I've done it 20-25 times and haven't scared myself yet.

I have, but now I fly smarter and not harder. But I wouldn’t expect a GA Tech grad to understand that concept.

 

[kyleb]

I have, but now I fly smarter and not harder. But I wouldn’t expect a GA Tech grad to understand that concept.

Now hold on there, Mr. Clemson without a lake. ;-)

Speaking of Oshkosh, where are you serving as a volunteer at SnF? I should be in HBC late next week. Come by and enjoy a beer.

 

[tsts4]

Now hold on there, Mr. Clemson without a lake. ;-)

Speaking of Oshkosh, where are you serving as a volunteer at SnF? I should be in HBC late next week. Come by and enjoy a beer.

Ooofff.

We’re in the kitchen making sandwiches for all the other volunteers—it’s a gig our EAA has been doing for years. We’ll definitely swing by. What’s your tail number?

 

[kyleb]

N46KB. HBC at SNF is small enough we should be easy to find.

 

[flyingron]

Ooofff.

We’re in the kitchen making sandwiches for all the other volunteers—it’s a gig our EAA has been doing for years. We’ll definitely swing by. What’s your tail number?

And I have to commend you guys. The quality of the sandwiches greatly improved over the past few years. No longer the mystery meat on wonderbread with the jolly rancher smushed in the middle. Quiet nice now.

 

[steingar]

But prop strikes and soft grounds causing wheel pant issues don’t come close to making my list of concerns.

Last Oshkosh one of the Mooneys in the Caravan had a prop strike from a soft spot. It's a big concern, especially in wet years.

 

[tsts4]

N46KB. HBC at SNF is small enough we should be easy to find.

We’ll be there Tuesday and Friday working, but plan to come back on Saturday just to hang out. We have a parking pass and week long wristbands. Got to be In Houston on Thursday but will be back that night so we can work our shift on Friday.

 

[tsts4]

Last Oshkosh one of the Mooneys in the Caravan had a prop strike from a soft spot. It's a big concern, especially in wet years.

With the number of aircraft operations each year, even in the wet years, it still seems something of a low probability risk based upon the number of times it happens vs the total number of aircraft movements. But hey not knocking the concern, just saying it’s not one of mine.

 

[wayne]

What do you fly? I’ve flown in the past 5 years and I don’t understand your concerns. I get not wanting to mix it up in the VFR arrival — that’s one reason I’ve opted to get a reservation and fly the IFR (way easier IMO). But prop strikes and soft grounds causing wheel pant issues don’t come close to making my list of concerns. IMO soft grounds are mainly an issue for the roads throughout Scholler than any of the aircraft parking/camping areas.

Cirrus SR22. I don't think a prop strike is a high likelihood, just more possible (even if just slightly) than on a nice paved surface. I've seen plenty of pictures of sheets of plywood under wheels at AirVenture. Probably more an issue for people there for the whole week.

Plus, I'd probably just go for a day, so that seems like a lot of work for one day.

 

[flyingron]

I've seen people do dumb things like taxi through coned-off areas to the consternation of the marshallers and hit things. I have seen a few Navions (which are prone to it) drag the tail going off the taxiway to the rows (I've warned the trainers about this). I've seen 195's taxi into poles even though the marshaller was frantically signaling to stop. You need to watch the marshaller AND the ground conditions once you leave the paved surfaces. SLOW is always a good idea.

 

[flyingron]

Cirrus SR22. I don't think a prop strike is a high likelihood, just more possible (even if just slightly) than on a nice paved surface. I've seen plenty of pictures of sheets of plywood under wheels at AirVenture. Probably more an issue for people there for the whole week.

Plus, I'd probably just go for a day, so that seems like a lot of work for one day.

People do that, but frankly, it's not really all that necessary. The first year I flew into the North 40 (1993) my Skyhawk sunk in and it took a lot of us to get it pushed out of the rut, but it wasn't a big thing. The Navion has never had a problem. I'm almost always tailed into someone else's camp site so I pull the thing out and turn it perpendicular to the row and it's never been something I couldn't handle. There's ALWAYS someone around to help you push/pull, it's never been an issue.

 

[tsts4]

Cirrus SR22. I don't think a prop strike is a high likelihood, just more possible (even if just slightly) than on a nice paved surface. I've seen plenty of pictures of sheets of plywood under wheels at AirVenture. Probably more an issue for people there for the whole week.

Plus, I'd probably just go for a day, so that seems like a lot of work for one day.

Tons of Cirri, Cirrues, whatever the plural is come to Osh every year without incident. We do put boards under our RV-10 which has similar weight and low profile wheel pants. We do that because the wheels do tend to sink in the turf after a few days, especially if the ground is soggy, and the boards help in pulling the plane out of the parking spot into the taxi lane. However it’s not the end of the world not to use boards, it just means you might have to enlist some help to push out whereas I can do it solo when I use boards. If you come for the day it shouldn’t present a problem at all.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

I've seen 195's taxi into poles even though the marshaller was frantically signaling to stop. You need to watch the marshaller AND the ground conditions once you leave the paved surfaces.

One thing I learned working on a ramp that saw lots of biz jet and GA traffic, getting a pro in a $3m jet to follow your marshalling signals was easy as pie, getting an amateur in a $30k puddle jumper to follow your marshalling signals was like trying to herd cats. They just will not do it. And then when they get out, they just love to school you on how 'I know you were trying to get me to turn back there but I'm the pilot in command yada yada yada. If only I had a dollar for every time some 300 hour wonder gave me that speech on the ramp.

 

[steingar]

With the number of aircraft operations each year, even in the wet years, it still seems something of a low probability risk based upon the number of times it happens vs the total number of aircraft movements. But hey not knocking the concern, just saying it’s not one of mine.

Mooneys sit low and are especially prone to prop strikes. And if you get one it is pretty catastrophic. I taxi over that turf on pins and needles.

 

[Daleandee]

There are indeed lots of people but the place is huge. And going earlier in the week means smaller crowds. I won’t disagree with the “expensive” part - but so is Disney, skiing, or other popular pastimes. [edit]But back to your comment, I highly suggest going. It’s a big deal for a reason.

I've never done Airventure but I've done SnF and plan to be there this year ...

 

[Dave Theisen]

Mooneys sit low and are especially prone to prop strikes. And if you get one it is pretty catastrophic. I taxi over that turf on pins and needles.

The prop clearance on an M20-C is only an inch and a quarter lower than a 172.

 

[painless]

One thing I learned working on a ramp that saw lots of biz jet and GA traffic, getting a pro in a $3m jet to follow your marshalling signals was easy as pie, getting an amateur in a $30k puddle jumper to follow your marshalling signals was like trying to herd cats. They just will not do it. And then when they get out, they just love to school you on how 'I know you were trying to get me to turn back there but I'm the pilot in command yada yada yada. If only I had a dollar for every time some 300 hour wonder gave me that speech on the ramp.

One ting to note, many GA pilots never spent a lick of time flying for the government or United airlines, so all the signals that are clear as a bell to the more experienced are completely unintelligible to the unwashed masses. I got in front of a marshaller at OSH one year at one of the taxiway intersections. She was going through all her gyrations which made no sense to me. She literally stomped her feet at me in a hissy fit. Another marshaller came up to her, said something in her ear, then proceeded to direct me via clear, layman’s directions. If learning all the marshaling signals is required to fly into Airventure, put it in the notam.

 

[frfly172]

Wouldn’t miss it going to do both sun n fun and air venture this year ,not getting any younger.

 

[keen9]

One ting to note, many GA pilots never spent a lick of time flying for the government or United airlines, so all the signals that are clear as a bell to the more experienced are completely unintelligible to the unwashed masses. I got in front of a marshaller at OSH one year at one of the taxiway intersections. She was going through all her gyrations which made no sense to me. She literally stomped her feet at me in a hissy fit. Another marshaller came up to her, said something in her ear, then proceeded to direct me via clear, layman’s directions. If learning all the marshaling signals is required to fly into Airventure, put it in the notam.

AIM 4.3.25 would have helped. Hand signals are not exactly complicated.

 

[Marshall Alexander]

I'll be there. Heck....I even went last year. Stayed in the same campground, in the same spot. Sleepy Hollow Farm bar was open too.

 

[172andyou]

Wearing a mask outside to satisfy anyone else regardless of their authority will not happen.

Look out! We have a real bad ass here!

 

[172andyou]

44 years aviating and I've never been. Here is my take - crowded, expensive, dangerously high traffic volumes, everything there can be seen elsewhere.

And you are absolutely entitled to that viewpoint. I will say, though, that I shared that viewpoint until I went and am glad to have had the experience. *For me* it's really become a highlight of the year.

 

[172andyou]

Please stay civil and on-topic. Refrain from both casual insults and debates over the politics of mask mandates.
Thank you.

Sorry, I hadn't seen this. Withdrawn...

 

[murphey]

44 years aviating and I've never been. Here is my take - crowded, expensive, dangerously high traffic volumes, everything there can be seen elsewhere.

True except for one aspect that may not apply to you....for me, it's the only chance to visit with friends in person, that I converse with on a couple private lists during the year.

 

[DaleB]

Agree with all but the (Fisk) arrival shouldn’t be feared - just respected. ATC does a fantastic job of turning potential chaos into a surprisingly orderly process.

Agreed. I've done it three times as PIC, and once as a passenger. I'm a poster child for "low time pilot". There was one incident where a guy cut RIGHT in front of me at what I considered to be a dangerously close range. Either he didn't see my very bright yellow airplane, or was just a d-bag. Either way, no paint was exchanged. That was in between my fuel stop and Ripon. But yeah, have arrived three times on Sunday, and I'm always impressed by the job the controllers do. Read the NOTAM, follow the NOTAM, shut up and listen, keep your eyeballs peeled, be prepared to break off and take another run at it if you're not comfortable. And if you're not used to flying at or below 90 knots for extended periods, go practice that ahead of time!

Seriously, Todd is right. I've never seen wheel pant damage at Oshkosh. I can't say it doesn't happen, but the RV crowd has pretty tightly fitted and low wheel pants, and I've never seen an airplane that had a problem.

That said, Todd needs to man-up and fly the VFR arrival. I've done it 20-25 times and haven't scared myself yet.

We actually found some pretty good chunks out of ours after the last trip. I suspect the tires picked up some muddy gravel chunks and dragged them through the wheel pant opening. The repairs weren't a big deal -- we didn't even know about the damage until we took the wheel pants off for the condition inspection.

It can be disconcerting for pilots who have never been within half a mile of other airplanes. I haven't scared myself flying the VFR arrival, but I did get briefly scared once by someone else. See and avoid for sure. The entertainment value of the guy right in front of me who seemed unable to keep his fancy half-mil airplane plus or minus 100 feet altitude or 15 knots airspeed made up for that, though.

 

[Juliet Hotel]

One ting to note, many GA pilots never spent a lick of time flying for the government or United airlines, so all the signals that are clear as a bell to the more experienced are completely unintelligible to the unwashed masses. I got in front of a marshaller at OSH one year at one of the taxiway intersections. She was going through all her gyrations which made no sense to me. She literally stomped her feet at me in a hissy fit. Another marshaller came up to her, said something in her ear, then proceeded to direct me via clear, layman’s directions. If learning all the marshaling signals is required to fly into Airventure, put it in the notam.

Marshallers at OSH are mostly amateur volunteers. The signals I used while working the ramp are the exact signals that are in the AIM. They are not complicated, difficult at all to understand nor are they difficult to look up if one knows one is going to be flying into a place where ramp people are likely to be present and directing you to parking.

To be clear, the problem I typically ran into was not that the GA weekend wonder pilot didn't understand what I was telling them to do. It was that they didn't trust that I was qualified to direct them between the wingtips of planes that I could see better than they could. Hence the 'yeah I know what you wanted me to do back there... but I'm the pilot in command so ultimately the responsibility for the airplane is on me...' speech.

This issue would largely go away if more CFI's took their students to airports with busy biz jets ramps. But to fair, a CFI can only teach what they know and most CFI's don't really learn how things work on those ramps until they stop working as a CFI and get their first job in the right seat of something that burns kerosene.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Look out! We have a real bad ass here!

I’m not a bad ass. I’ll refrain from stating what you are based on your post.

 

[flyingron]

Down in vintage every year we require a training class that details the five hand singles and making the larger: come to me, slow down, left turn, right turn, and STOP! Slow down and stop are the key. The marshaller is going to do their best not to lose sight of you, don't lose sight. Chasing down someone about to taxi into a speaker pole from the rear isn't ever effective.

 

[denverpilot]

One ting to note, many GA pilots never spent a lick of time flying for the government or United airlines, so all the signals that are clear as a bell to the more experienced are completely unintelligible to the unwashed masses. I got in front of a marshaller at OSH one year at one of the taxiway intersections. She was going through all her gyrations which made no sense to me. She literally stomped her feet at me in a hissy fit. Another marshaller came up to her, said something in her ear, then proceeded to direct me via clear, layman’s directions. If learning all the marshaling signals is required to fly into Airventure, put it in the notam.

So you’re saying if you got a job at United or for Uncle Sam your unsatisfactory performance following standard signals — would magically not be the marshaler’s fault anymore but yours?

Pitiful. Seriously. Step it up. Hand signals aren’t hard and they’re the same everywhere.

 

[JimNtexas]

This will be my first time in the probably unaircondtioned UW dorms. Anything I should know about the dorm experience?

 

[Larry Korona]

This will be my first time in the probably unaircondtioned UW dorms. Anything I should know about the dorm experience?

I've stayed in the dorms every year that I've attended. Very good experience, never had any issues. Bring a fan, nice to have few times that we had warm nights, most of the years I've found the overnight temperatures to be just about right. Also the bus service to the field is very good. Food service on campus is also a good deal.