1965 Cherokee 140, IFR

Jon Gunther

Jon Gunther

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Jon Gunther
Hello all, I am the proud new owner of a 65 Cherokee 140. I am working on my private right now and plan on going all the way to commerical. In January I will be changing my transponder to meet the ads-b requirement. While it is in the shop I plan on making it IFR certified.

My current avionics include duel nav/com one has glideslope. One is a king, not sure on the other. I also have a panel mounted Garmin 296 gps. From my research, as long as my pitot static system checks out I am IFR legal.

What are some things I should look into while we have the plane in the shop. I will be doing most of my flying in Oklahoma but do plan on going to California and Florida occasionally. We have considered re arranging the panel as well
 
Pitot heat, if you plan on actually going in the soup. DME or GPS (296 doesn't count, even in the panel). I looked into getting my Cherokee IFR, but in the end, it wasn't worth it to me.
 
@RussR is a good CFI-I to know for IFR instruction and flying in the Oklahoma area. He's based in OKC. But currently at AirVenture so it might be a bit for him to see this thread and respond.

FAR 91.205 covers the required equipment you need for IFR flight. So if you have those items, then "at minimum" you're good.


However with the phasing out of VOR's around the country, and GPS based nav becoming more the norm, having a good WAAS navigator should be of interest to you. Examples of used equipment would be the Garmin 430W, Garmin 530W, Garmin 480, Apollo CNX80. Examples of new equipment include the Garmin GTN series and Avidyne IFD series.

Also helpful is an autopilot. A good autopilot, especially coupled to the navigator, can reduce your workload tremendously. TruTrak is producing one for the Cherokees that is reported to be at an affordable price.
 
I have a 1965 Cherokee 140 as well and did my entire IR in it. For most of the training I had two KX170Bs, two King CDIs (old unreliable models to be honest) - one LOC only and one ILS. I too have a 296 as well.

At the very end of my training we ended up putting a Garmin G5 HSI in and a GNC255 radio. Amazing stuff.

Old Panel:
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IMG_0160.JPG

New Panel:
IMG_2383.JPG
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AggieMike88 said:
@RussR is a good CFI-I to know for IFR instruction and flying in the Oklahoma area.
Click to expand...

Thanks @AggieMike88 !

@Jon Gunther , I don't know that I have anything particular to add to the advice already given - you may not have to actually do anything to your airplane to make it IFR legal, but certainly can go overboard and spend as much as you want. Where in OK are you? That would affect the decision (primarily regarding whether VOR/ILS navigation is going to be sufficient for you for the short term).
 
I am in okc flying out of Sundance. Currently under the instruction of Scott Dorsey

Here are a couple pics of my panel
 

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I think we have the best image for the dictionary when you look up "Piper shotgun layout".

If that was my airplane, I might consider rearranging some of the instruments into as close to a "normal" six-pack arrangement as possible.

Location -- Instrument
1 -- Airspeed
2 -- Attitude Indicator
3 -- Altitude
4 -- Turn Coordinator
5 -- DG
6 -- VSI

Doing so is gonna reduce your workload significantly. And it makes for better muscle memory of your scan, especially if you ever fly a different airplane.

All of the instruments that need to move appear to be the same size, so costs to do the moving should remain reasonable.


upload_2018-7-23_13-55-24.png
 
AggieMike88 said:
I think we have the best image for the dictionary when you look up "Piper shotgun layout".

If that was my airplane, I might consider rearranging some of the instruments into as close to a "normal" six-pack arrangement as possible.

Location -- Instrument
1 -- Airspeed
2 -- Attitude Indicator
3 -- Altitude
4 -- Turn Coordinator
5 -- DG
6 -- VSI

Doing so is gonna reduce your workload significantly. And it makes for better muscle memory of your scan, especially if you ever fly a different airplane.

All of the instruments that need to move appear to be the same size, so costs to do the moving should remain reasonable.


View attachment 65299
Click to expand...
I looked into that. It is expensive. On a Cherokee, the panel is considered structural and a couple of those holes are smaller than standard. Also, not all of the holes are very deep (they won't take a full instrument).
 
Jon Gunther said:
I am in okc flying out of Sundance. Currently under the instruction of Scott Dorsey
Click to expand...

I know Scott. Sundance is the main airport I fly out of as well (though I don't work for the school), but I also do some instruction at the other airports around OKC. I've probably seen your plane around, I'll try to say hi next time I do!
 
RussR said:
I know Scott. Sundance is the main airport I fly out of as well (though I don't work for the school), but I also do some instruction at the other airports around OKC. I've probably seen your plane around, I'll try to say hi next time I do!
Click to expand...

Going to be about 3 weeks before I fly again. Out of town on vacation. Look forward to meeting you
 
@Jon Gunther ... some of Denizens of DFW are known to fly up to Ozzie's for Breakfast. And to help raise the IQ of both states.

I'll make sure to ping you the next time I head that way.
 
Standby vacuum, if you plan to actually fly in IMC much? If you'll mostly be training/practicing instrument stuff, not as important.
 
I figure it will mostly be training and practice, or pop up if im on a long cross country
 
Jon Gunther said:
Hello all, I am the proud new owner of a 65 Cherokee 140. I am working on my private right now and plan on going all the way to commerical. In January I will be changing my transponder to meet the ads-b requirement. While it is in the shop I plan on making it IFR certified.

My current avionics include duel nav/com one has glideslope. One is a king, not sure on the other. I also have a panel mounted Garmin 296 gps. From my research, as long as my pitot static system checks out I am IFR legal.

What are some things I should look into while we have the plane in the shop. I will be doing most of my flying in Oklahoma but do plan on going to California and Florida occasionally. We have considered re arranging the panel as well
Click to expand...

Find a deal on a GNS430 and nav head, be a good IFR plane.

A good single pilot IMC plane is a different story.
 
You probably already know this, but you will need to keep the VOR's current with their 30 day checks.
 
Hi Jon,
I've got a '66 PA28, with the (nearly) same panel. Only thing I added was pitot heat. My panel is arranged just like yours, other than the turn and bank on mine is switched with your lower VOR CDI. I haven't found the panel arrangement a problem. Also, instead of a standby vacuum, I just picked up a Stratus 2s so it has the AHRS for emergencies (my instructor had me try flying under the hood with JUST the ipad/AHRS, and it worked great). I know some people say you should have an AP, but I've found the PA28 so stable that not having one is no big deal.
Tim
 
AggieMike88 said:
@RussR is a good CFI-I to know for IFR instruction and flying in the Oklahoma area. He's based in OKC. But currently at AirVenture so it might be a bit for him to see this thread and respond.

FAR 91.205 covers the required equipment you need for IFR flight. So if you have those items, then "at minimum" you're good.


However with the phasing out of VOR's around the country, and GPS based nav becoming more the norm, having a good WAAS navigator should be of interest to you. Examples of used equipment would be the Garmin 430W, Garmin 530W, Garmin 480, Apollo CNX80. Examples of new equipment include the Garmin GTN series and Avidyne IFD series.

Also helpful is an autopilot. A good autopilot, especially coupled to the navigator, can reduce your workload tremendously. TruTrak is producing one for the Cherokees that is reported to be at an affordable price.
Click to expand...
I agree with the autopilot. I flew for three hours in solid IMC with my old Skyhawk, no AP (and only a 1997 handheld GPS on the yoke). I literally stunk at the end of that flight. I had "needle, ball, airspeed" running through my head! Very difficult to communicate and look at charts and AFD whilst keeping it upright.
 
Says me sell the Cherokee and buy one with all the stuff in it already. Boxes are expensive, installing them even moreso. And get that 296 out of your panel, damn things are old and slow.
 
Well I just bought the plane. So selling and buying a different one is not in the cards right now. As for the gps I have, it may be old but it is better than not having one at all. I know I can not use it for IFR approaches, it is still good for general enroute flying as long as I back it up to charts.
 
You have enough to earn the IR rating, but the reality of the airspace system now is it's becoming more WAAS-GPS-centric. It would be ideal, if more expensive, to get the IR rating while learning to operate a WAAS GPS system. Flying LPVs are not so hard, it's learning to be facile with the "knobology." A used GNS-430W is probably the cheapest (but not cheap) way to get into WAAS, and could enhance having ADS-B, especially if you have IN capability. However, WAAS GPS can be a significant fraction of the value of the aircraft.

An autopilot is nice, especially single pilot IFR, but not essential. I flew single pilot IFR for many years without. It's hectic at times, but doable if you are competent. During training, you probably don't need George anyway while you hone your control skills.
 
You can get the rating,as equipped,wouldn’t be in a hurry ,to actually fly single pilot IFR,in IMC conditions.
 
Thank you for the info, I have found a couple gps 400's how do they stack up. I know they are just the gps but they are around $3000 for the waas vs the $5--8000 for the 430 and my com/nav radios are working.
 
I think the 400W is great and in some ways I prefer it to the more complicated 430W as with added function come added complexity of having to remember to switch from GPS to LOC mode and vice versa. But you may find that if panel space is an issue, you may want to see if selling your existing NAV/COM radio(s) will bridge the price gap. I don't know hoe much longer it will be supported but the Garmin 480/Apollo CNX80 is without a doubt the best space/cost bang for your buck WAAS GPS/NAV/COM. The monitor function makes it like having a second com in the panel.
 
And of course Garmin now has some pretty snappy options for upgrading your panel to WAAS. Before you touch your ADS-B compliance, you really need to look at the GNX375--ADS-B and WAAS GPS in one box. Plus inflight weather. That's a sweet IFR package if you already have usable NAV/COMs. If you cheap out on the ADS-B, then the GPS 175 is another option, but the GNX 375 is a real bargain for a modern WAAS + ADS-B solution, and will give you a ton of capability. The 400W and 430W units are tanks, and very reliable, but these are entering their third decade of service, so support will not last forever. I say that as a GNS-430W owner--at some point, future support will effectively be in the form of plug-in replacements like the Avidyne products.

If you don't want to go the GNX 375/GPS 175 route, at least carefully consider your options for ADS-B so that your solution is compatible with any future avionics upgrades. It would be tragic to install an ADS-B unit that does not talk well with your other avionics. And if flying IFR, think about how you are going to get in-flight weather--you WILL want that capability, and a panel solution is in many ways much cleaner than a portable one, if more costly. XM weather and FIS-B is both very nice.
 
hish747 said:
I think the 400W is great and in some ways I prefer it to the more complicated 430W as with added function come added complexity of having to remember to switch from GPS to LOC mode and vice versa. But you may find that if panel space is an issue, you may want to see if selling your existing NAV/COM radio(s) will bridge the price gap. I don't know hoe much longer it will be supported but the Garmin 480/Apollo CNX80 is without a doubt the best space/cost bang for your buck WAAS GPS/NAV/COM. The monitor function makes it like having a second com in the panel.
Click to expand...

480 is out of support already. If it fails, Garmin ain’t fixing it
 
As for ads-b I went with the skybeacon. After some bumps I finally got it working. Along the way we did get the plane IFR certified. Had to replace airspeed/altimeter and fix a couple leaks but it is all good now. We have done a few IFR flights in it so far and everything seams to be working. Not so sure on the glide slope yet it worked on one approach but the next one not so much. We have not tested it again since. For now, I will not be looking into a was gps just dont have the funds for it right now. I do have ads-b in with a stratux with ahrs. My instructor prefers to teach IFR using all old school methods so he actually prefers to not use the GPS. He does teach it if available but as a secondary system not the primary
 
John221us said:
I looked into that. It is expensive. On a Cherokee, the panel is considered structural and a couple of those holes are smaller than standard. Also, not all of the holes are very deep (they won't take a full instrument).
Click to expand...

We talked about this in another thread, but I rearranged my panel when I first got my 1966 Cherokee. It only took a couple of hours of A&P time and it is much closer to a six-pack. I don’t really notice the difference when I fly planes with a real six-pack. I need to replace the clock to make it IFR legal.

Cherokee Panel.jpeg
 
Congrats on the Cherokee (even though this is old thread). I bought a 1964 model six years ago 15 hours in as a student and have now logged over 150 hours total with it. Dual Nav/Coms, one with GS. Like yours the first sqawks taken care of were overhaul of a faulty speed indicator and attitude indicator and replacement of all the hoses due to dry rot to get it past IFR testing. In six years I've been through about every system on it adding shoulder belts in front, update of some of the interior, new exhaust pipes, and many other items. I've kicked around idea of getting something bigger and faster, but hate starting over updating everything in an unknown plane.

I too added the Skybeacon with a few difficulties passing the testing,so had to also get a used Garmin 327 transponder installed, but at least now all my avionics are of 1990's era or newer. haha. No GPS, I too just can't put the funds in to a WAAS system. I've stated IFR training, so somewhat limited on which airports I can go to with no RNAV, but I think I can help build a lot of the time needed with help of a couple local safety pilots.

About every two years I've considered rearranging my steam gauges to get a true six pack and my mechanic is willing to help with the 337 form to do it all right with a newly cut aluminum backplate, but I've learned to just adjust my scan for now when in different planes.

Need to spend more time flying the plane than having it apart.:)
 
I understand that one, I got quoted $3000 to re do the panel at the avionics shop. Once I get my a&p I may do it on my own with the help of my IA
 
Our '66 140 has the same bizarre panel layout. I asked about having them rearranged and was dissuaded.
 
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