1960's Piper 180.. Scrap Price or Part out?

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PiperMan180

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PiperMan180
1967 Piper Cher 180, Engine has a SBOH of 340 on it, has been sitting for 2-3 years I recently got it due to death in the family, was flown a week or 2 before death just had a brand new complete carb kit, oil change and plugs right before last flight. It has the 360-a4a lycoming in it, would like some advice how to proceed at this point, it has been on a 2 gallon engine dehydrator the whole time (dried them out) and it has been inside a insulated hanger people are bum rushing to buy it for scrap

Options here, btw I have a borescope I was planning on looking @ cylinder walls with it atleast in the next couple days will provide pictures
 
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PiperMan180 said:
1967 Piper Cher 180, Engine has a SBOH of 340 on it, has been sitting for 2-3 years I recently got it due to death in the family, was flown a week or 2 before death just had a brand new complete carb kit, oil change and plugs right before last flight. It has the 360-a4a lycoming in it, would like some advice how to proceed at this point, it has been on a 2 gallon engine dehydrator the whole time (dried them out) and it has been inside a insulated hanger people are bum rushing to buy it for scrap

Options here, btw I have a borescope I was planning on looking @ cylinder walls with it atleast in the next couple days will provide pictures
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Being a Lycoming you will want to be able to boroscope the cam, if possible.

Also, do you have all the logbooks and are they up to date? Those are very very valuable.
 
Used plane prices are through the roof, I don't know why you would scrap it. List it for sale whole and see what happens. (It's not like the scrap value is going to decrease if it sits on the market awhile.)
 
Don’t sell it for scrap. Someone is trying to take advantage of you, assuming you don’t know any better.

2-3 years of sitting isn’t good, but I wouldn’t rule it as being worthy of a dumpster yet. Price it assuming it needs a full major overhaul and whatever the avionics are.
 
PiperMan180 said:
has been sitting for 2-3 years I recently got it due to death in the family,
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Before you get to far along, will you be able to complete the registration of the aircraft in your name or in the name of a protentional buyer?
 
I wouldn’t sell it for scrap. That’s a bottom feeder trying to steal it.

Without knowing more, and assuming the dehydrator was still doing its thing, I’d suggest finding a mechanic and get a pre buy type inspection. If it’s looking good, just turn that to an annual.
 
Don't listen to them. Sell it to me and I'll scrap it for you :yes:

Please don't scrap it.
 
Initial Fix said:
I wouldn’t sell it for scrap. That’s a bottom feeder trying to steal it.

Without knowing more, and assuming the dehydrator was still doing its thing, I’d suggest finding a mechanic and get a pre buy type inspection. If it’s looking good, just turn that to an annual.
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That is good advice. A prebuy inspection will give you a good idea of what you have and let him tell you what shape it is in. Turning the prebuy into an annual would make that airplane marketable and possibly desirable even. Look up similar airplanes on trade a plane. 1967 was a good year for those birds. I own a '64 now and owned and flew a '68 for 14 years. I sold it in 2017. It was recently resold and still going strong. Airplanes last a long time if you take care of them.
 
Unless it was seriously neglected before the owner’s death that’s still a good airplane. The cheapest ones on Trade-a-Plane are in the mid $60,000 range.
Get a good corrosion inspection, including the wing spar, and a good inspection of the engine. If it checks out, complete then annual and list it on one of the sale sites.
I wouldn’t put any money into radios, paint and interior but I would fix anything else that isn’t subject to personal preference.
I just sold my 140 with 1,100 hours on the engine, terrible paint, interior, and old radios for a lot more than scrap. And a 180 is a much more desirable airplane.
 
Don’t f around. Just have an annual inspection done. That will tell you what you need to know. Tell them not to fix anything, just provide a list of airworthiness issues if there are any. The annual should include AD research. Then decide next steps.

Pre buy is not a thing. It means something different to every person. An annual tells you what must be done to make it airworthy and should not cost a lot more than a pre buy if done as I described.
 
There is more info needed to be sure, but I doubt scraping it makes sense. Almost certainly has more value as a project than as parts.

Couple quick questions. Do you have a clear title? Is there any corrosion? What does the panel look like? Do you have the logs?

Where are you located?

Take your time.
 
Salty said:
Don’t f around. Just have an annual inspection done. That will tell you what you need to know. Tell them not to fix anything, just provide a list of airworthiness issues if there are any. The annual should include AD research. Then decide next steps.

Pre buy is not a thing. It means something different to every person. An annual tells you what must be done to make it airworthy and should not cost a lot more than a pre buy if done as I described.
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It’s all highly dependent. Too many rubber stampers out there nowadays to know if an annual was actually an annual. I’d want a pre-buy from a reputable mechanic BEFORE an annual to know what I’m getting, instead of being on the hook for a bunch of squawks.
 
Bell206 said:
Before you get to far along, will you be able to complete the registration of the aircraft in your name or in the name of a protentional buyer?
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Yes I have all the paperwork besides most of the pilot flight logs and none after 18-19 (went digital) I have the airframe and engine/prop ending in 2020 a couple weeks before death, this thing was his baby, paint is 2002 imron.. always got what it needed it had got a new $2,400 complete carb replacement not a rebuilt, before that starter and motor mount it always got what it needed... the step getting into the plane was completely replaced because slight corrision

I have looked at it pretty good with my streamlight, I am a auto collision tech (former automotive tech) so mechanically I feel like these guys are trying to get over on me just because I am not a A&P

for sure I am going to start by scoping the cyclinders through plug holes, any good access to the camshaft w/o pulling a head?

BTW thank you for all your input
 
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PiperMan180 said:
Yes I have all the paperwork
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To clarify... you have a current aircraft registration certificate with your name on it?
PiperMan180 said:
I feel like these guys are trying to get over on me just because I am not a A&P
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Not necessarily. If in fact you are the registered owner of the aircraft you have that important item over them. Are "these guys" the previous owner's friends or mechanics?
 
Follow the good directions here (clean it up, get a good inspection, etc) then keep it and learn to fly!

Where are you located? There's going to be someone on POA in your area that can provide more in person suggestions and ideas, and help, too!
 
Bell206 said:
To clarify... you have a current aircraft registration certificate with your name on it?

Not necessarily. If in fact you are the registered owner of the aircraft you have that important item over them. Are "these guys" the previous owner's friends or mechanics?
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registration is still current in fathers name until @ 27 or 28 I'd have to check on the paperwork I printed it after the January 2023 extension, I planned on transferring it directly to the next owner with the authority of the courts or under a POA with estate closed noone else has claim to this property and I have the hanger in my possession as well (not a rental)

why does it matter if its in my name or not as far as having a leg up its not in there names? noone else could claim it anymore then a car or house that hasn't been transferred over to me hypothetically just confused on this line of questioning? its been in the family since the mid to late 90's and yes 1 guy was others are friends of family and myself (not saying all of them are trying to gouge me)
 
Running or not, someone will buy it from you at market price, reflecting condition. There’s only two things you really need to know.

First, can you legally transfer registration of the aircraft? That will take some research with the aircraft registry. Enter the N-number on the website below and see what comes back.


If registration is current, the executor will need to be involved to transfer registration. Nothing like the automobile world at all.

Second, is it airworthy? Again, not to be disrespectful of your experience, but it’s irrelevant. An annual inspection performed by an authorized inspector will tell you if it’s airworthy or not. This includes the Airworthiness Directives research/compliance documentation.

Note you only want the inspection performed and be provided with a list of discrepancies. There’s no need to sink money into deferred maintenance at this point. As a point of reference, in the last few months, some here sold a similar vintage Piper after a catastrophic engine failure while in flight. Landing was a success, but it needed a $45k+ engine replacement to flt again. And it sold in that condition.

Anything other than transferrable registration is negotiable.
 
TCABM said:
Running or not, someone will buy it from you at market price, reflecting condition. There’s only two things you really need to know.

First, can you legally transfer registration of the aircraft? That will take some research with the aircraft registry. Enter the N-number on the website below and see what comes back.


If registration is current, the executor will need to be involved to transfer registration. Nothing like the automobile world at all.

Second, is it airworthy? Again, not to be disrespectful of your experience, but it’s irrelevant. An annual inspection performed by an authorized inspector will tell you if it’s airworthy or not. This includes the Airworthiness Directives research/compliance documentation.

Note you only want the inspection performed and be provided with a list of discrepancies. There’s no need to sink money into deferred maintenance at this point. As a point of reference, in the last few months, some here sold a similar vintage Piper after a catastrophic engine failure while in flight. Landing was a success, but it needed a $45k+ engine replacement to flt again. And it sold in that condition.

Anything other than transferrable registration is negotiable.
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I can legally transfer it if needed to, Status is valid and is good until 2028. Executor or administrator signing is required for anything wither it be a deed to property, aircraft or auto. I just did one recently and had to jump through all kinds of hoops for a automobile 2-3 extra forms with 1 notarized by both parties

FAA aircraft bill of sale - have all the supporting documents





And BTW I can only assume because my first mentioning scrap or parts the questioning I am being asked if I "own this" since it looks like I am trying to strip it this is not the case these people know this is my aircraft and are telling me this. Can a mod please edit the Title to "or sell out of annual"
 
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PiperMan180 said:
why does it matter if its in my name or not as far as having a leg up its not in there names? noone else could claim it anymore then a car or house that hasn't been transferred over to me hypothetically just confused on this line of questioning? its been in the family since the mid to late 90's and yes 1 guy was others are friends of family and myself (not saying all of them are trying to gouge me)
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Because you may not have enough paperwork to prove that you actually have the authority to sell it.

Before I did anything, I'd work on getting the aircraft ownership transferred to you. Once that process is completed then there should be minimal trouble. Lots of people can't figure out how to successfully transfer ownership between a living seller and a buyer successfully without additional help let alone trying to transfer one from the estate of a deceased owner.
 
mondtster said:
Because you may not have enough paperwork to prove that you actually have the authority to sell it.

Before I did anything, I'd work on getting the aircraft ownership transferred to you. Once that process is completed then there should be minimal trouble. Lots of people can't figure out how to successfully transfer ownership between a living seller and a buyer successfully without additional help let alone trying to transfer one from the estate of a deceased owner.
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rgr that I have uncontested paperwork signed by the court (beyond the limit to be contested at this point), I have been in touch with the FAA to make sure due to some other attempted fraud on another part of property. I am not to worried about the transfer at this time it is, I have alot of experience in state and out of state transfering different types of property (not saying I enjoy it) Lets jump back to the plane here. So I will try and post photo's here soon
 
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PiperMan180 said:
I planned on transferring it directly to the next owner with the authority of the courts or under a POA with estate closed noone else has claim to this property and I have the hanger in my possession as well (not a rental)
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Is this your father’s aircraft? Are you the executor of his estate?

In order to transfer ownership of the aircraft you need to provide evidence of ownership to satisfy the aircraft registration requirements which is usually beyond a power of attorney or having physical possession of the aircraft. They are very specific requirements which is different than vehicles and property.

There are several guidance documents on this and need to be followed precisely in order to transfer the aircraft from a deceased entity to another entity. Here is one.
 
The paperwork isn't a big deal. If it's registered, titled and the executor signs the bill of sale it's done.
 
Cams are rusted. I'll take that crank though.

Don't scrap it. Get it registered. That little bit of paper chase now will be worth it later.
 
The OP has stated the registration is current. The sales paperwork is neither onerous or complex.
 
PiperMan180 said:
I can legally transfer it if needed to,[/URL]..
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That being the case, you can sell it as is or get an annual done w/list if discreps and sell as is.

You can also bring a broker into the equation and offload all the ‘work’ to them. Really depends on how quick the estate wants to liquidate this asset.
 
PiperMan180 said:
I can legally transfer it if needed to, Status is valid and is good until 2028. Executor or administrator signing is required for anything wither it be a deed to property, aircraft or auto. I just did one recently and had to jump through all kinds of hoops for a automobile 2-3 extra forms with 1 notarized by both parties

FAA aircraft bill of sale - have all the supporting documents
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Perhaps PiperMan 180 doesn't realize registration is $5.00

Were is this aircraft, I am looking for a ole bird to fly... I'll take good care of her.
Are you on an airport? Can I come inspect and fly it away?
 
Bell206 said:
Agree. But if you're not the legal representative in the eyes of the FAA that can sign that paperwork, it becomes moot regardless if the registration is current.
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I dont think anyones arguing this, we are spending mental capital here on a insignificant issue that for some people might be a hitch or issue this is not the case here.

What is the easiest way to take a look at some of the cam lobes on this engine in the least invasive way?
 
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Bell206 said:
Agree. But if you're not the legal representative in the eyes of the FAA that can sign that paperwork, it becomes moot regardless if the registration is current.
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See post #23.
 
Getting a look at the camshaft requires the removal of at least one cylinder, and that only lets you look at half the length of the cam.

Borescope the cylinders. If they aren't pitted, remove a magneto. Are the gears in there rusty? If not, cut open the oil filter. Is there metal in it? If not, the cam is likely OK.

Ground-running that engine wrecks the cam via corrosion, but it also corrodes the cylinder walls and accessory case gearing. If the engine is left strictly alone it has a much better survival rate.
 
I hate to be redundant, and that the OP has been in contact with the FAA but...the OP keeps talking about cars and real estate sales. Those are county topics, even when out of state sales. (BTDT). Selling an aircraft is a Federal issue. No state, county or city is involved (unless one or the other is trying to grab the sales tax). The hangar is real estate, so that's a county topic.
 
PiperMan180 said:
we are spending mental capital here on a insignificant issue that for some people might be a hitch or issue this is not the case here.
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Not really. The biggest error I see people make in dealing with an “estate” aircraft is they don’t fully understand the registration requirements. Your comments above don’t imply that hence my questions. Dealing with the aircraft is the easy part. But if you think you got it under control, rock on.

As to the cam question, I second what Dan offered above.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Getting a look at the camshaft requires the removal of at least one cylinder, and that only lets you look at half the length of the cam.

Borescope the cylinders. If they aren't pitted, remove a magneto. Are the gears in there rusty? If not, cut open the oil filter. Is there metal in it? If not, the cam is likely OK.

Ground-running that engine wrecks the cam via corrosion, but it also corrodes the cylinder walls and accessory case gearing. If the engine is left strictly alone it has a much better survival rate.
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yes it has not been run since its last flight, the desiccant beads in the dryer seem to be slightly changing over a good period of time

murphey said:
I hate to be redundant, and that the OP has been in contact with the FAA but...the OP keeps talking about cars and real estate sales. Those are county topics, even when out of state sales. (BTDT). Selling an aircraft is a Federal issue. No state, county or city is involved (unless one or the other is trying to grab the sales tax). The hangar is real estate, so that's a county topic.
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Just saying I have experience doing transfers heck I was certified by my states comptroller for about 5 years at one point. I fully understand how to navigate the legalities of getting this type of stuff done. let's move back to the plane please. I understand on the bill of sale it must be listed as Estae of, Officer of State, Title and Signed

Bell206 said:
Not really. The biggest error I see people make in dealing with an “estate” aircraft is they don’t fully understand the registration requirements. Your comments above don’t imply that hence my questions. Dealing with the aircraft is the easy part. But if you think you got it under control, rock on.

As to the cam question, I second what Dan offered above.
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I apologize I should have been more forthcoming in my initial post, but yes it is well in hand thank you I have reviewed the FAA rules and have full authority todo what needs to be done according to my contact with them. Thank you for the advice regarding the camshaft inspection
 
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I wouldn't advise someone on how to go about performing illegal maintenance.
 
PiperMan180 said:
I can legally transfer it if needed to, Status is valid and is good until 2028. Executor or administrator signing is required for anything wither it be a deed to property, aircraft or auto. I just did one recently and had to jump through all kinds of hoops for a automobile 2-3 extra forms with 1 notarized by both parties

FAA aircraft bill of sale - have all the supporting documents

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It's obvious the OP knows what is involved in selling the aircraft. He's asking about mechanical issues.

Jeezus.
 
How many of us have noticed the OP has not responded to "where are you located?" , that's been asked at least 3 times.
 
murphey said:
How many of us have noticed the OP has not responded to "where are you located?" , that's been asked at least 3 times.
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south-western part of the country I have avoided it because some people involved with the death of my father might be on these online forums as well as mixed allegiances with A&P's that where "friends" @ time of death the airplane community is small. And honestly this situation has already been a headache enough without any extra drama and I have my own life I'm just trying to move on its bad enough there is questions of the way he died
 
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