182Q upgrade Avionics, or upgrade to 182T?

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Bryan Tate

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First post, go easy on me
I have a 1976 182Q (late '76 but a q)
First to describe my plane as best I can
550 hours on engine, low frame time overall for the plane, 20 footer paint job (looks good from 20 feet), 2- Gi-275's, new Garmin audio panel, Garmin 430 Waas, LED lights, updated interior, no known issues-she flies great, some older fuel and temp monitors. She looks pretty good for an old girl. However, my autopilot didn't mesh with the new stuff so. (now my question)
I want to add Garmin autopilot with auto trim, and ideally a Garmin 750Xi, and it ideally paint and new windows. That adds up fast. Close to 70k. I could see redoing the entire panel and would love to have a g500 and eliminate all old fuel, temp gauges etc.

But before I do all that, it is tempting to sell the q and get a T? Just looking around at them now, so I don't know If I can find one that has what I want. Thinking of 2001-ish steam gauge (vs non-WAAS g1000) but I think most don't have fresh updates just yet (some have a g5 or two)

I guess I feel that my bird will always be a bit older, shorter, less aerodynamic, and slower. I like my plane until I see my hangar neighbors 182T. I think new paint might completely change my perspective of my plane. I have some equity in my plane now, just nervous I will spend $80k on upgrades and it will hit a price ceiling.

Has anyone been in similar spot? I could find a way to fund the difference, but it would be a bit of a stretch (perhaps need to save up, sell a Bronco or borrow a bit)

Are updated Q,s "just as good" as a T? or is the newer body style (and engine) worth the difference in price?
Some have advised that I move to a 6 seater piper, but I am not ready for that move just yet. I am in NC and mainly foresee NC flights, but we have ventured to Florida in mine too.
I plan to get Instrument rated, and for the record...I am still a student pilot, have been flying for about a year, and am around the 110-hour mark. Just been taking my time and learning all I can with my friend/instructor. (taking trips with him now to learn that aspect)
 
Bryan Tate said:
I could find a way to fund the difference, but it would be a bit of a stretch (perhaps need to save up, sell a Bronco or borrow a bit)
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My financial suggestion.

Do not stretch.

What options are available where you are comfortably "under budget" ?
 
Thanks, I just hate to borrow funds; I would think I would reallocate funds from other "toys"; Not a stretch that we have to eat baloney sandwiches for the next two years. I would be spending "reserves" if I did it all now.

I guess I just need to "decide" now, not commit. If the 182T is inevitable, then maybe I just hold off on autopilot and gi275 for now and fly more. If the answer is something pointing to a 182q being "close" to as good for a lot less money, then I would order the autopilot now; 750 later and paint next year. I am just a bit hesitant and felt I should at least calculate the upgrade cost. I saw a nice 182T this weekend local; asking around $370k, (steam gauge 2004) with the parachute. It did have a tail fully replaced 15 years ago, didn't love the burgandy stripes either. (had g5's and a earlier 750 Garmin)
 
Keep the Q. You know the plane, and getting a different 25 year old plane is nearly the same gamble as getting a different 40 year old plane. The Q has more useful load.

You already have the -275s, so I'd make the leap for the 750xi and GFC-500.

BTW, your plane is 1977, not a '76, by model year, if it is in fact a Q. Some records are incorrect on this ours as well. Our Q is very likely only a few serial #s from yours, made in '76 but not flown by Cessna until Jan. '77.
 
N7604S, it shows as a 1976q?
Not sure what is correct. it was a nov/dec build I think; you guys know more than me, just parroting what I was told and what I see registered
 
From a possible ops perspective the 430W is as capable as any modern navigator. Its support life may be nearing an end but why spend the install cost to trade like for (very loosely) like?

The GFC-500 is largely an independent install from the 750, as far as I can tell (I'm doing a 430non-waas->650Xi/GFC500 upgrade right now and they were quoted independently). The GFC-500 provides massive capability increase that a new paint job does not.

Again from ops perspective the G500 provides minimal capability over the 275s you have + a 275 EIS. Maybe it takes a second longer to pull info, but you have autopilot on anyway.

I would (a) fly the plane, (b) install autopilot/get IR, (c) consider an engine monitor (the 275 EIS will integrate well with your stack and is primary).
 
Bryan Tate said:
N7604S, it shows as a 1976q?
Not sure what is correct. it was a nov/dec build I think; you guys know more than me, just parroting what I was told and what I see registered
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Yours is a '77 model-year Q. 18265176 was the first S/N of the new model year. Just like cars, you can get the next model year before the calendar ticks over. You have the little "shark fin" vents on the back side of the engine cowling, that is the visual giveaway for the P's vs. Q's.
 
Bryan Tate said:
550 hours on engine, low frame time overall for the plane, 20 footer paint job (looks good from 20 feet), 2- Gi-275's, new Garmin audio panel, Garmin 430 Waas, LED lights, updated interior, no known issues-she flies great
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Congrats on finding a good plane that's a known quantity.

Bryan Tate said:
But before I do all that, it is tempting to sell the q and get a T?
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What problem will that solve? Why gamble and start again, over paint envy of all things? Wait a while, do the panel, wait a while, do the paint. The years of ownership will tick by quickly enough.

Bryan Tate said:
nervous I will spend $80k on upgrades and it will hit a price ceiling
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Don't worry, it's "normal" to dump $X into a $X plane and still have a $X plane. Also, it's never done.

Oh, welcome to PoA!
 
Bryan Tate said:
…I have some equity in my plane now, just nervous I will spend $80k on upgrades and it will hit a price ceiling.…
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Did you buy your last plane first? If so, invest in it and don’t worry about price ceilings. If you did not, then don’t dump a ton of money into it that won’t pay off. And god forbid, don’t trade up for a newer version of the same model.

Wash/wax/polish the plane and figure out if this is your forever plane.
 
Don't know if this will help you but I own a '78 model year Q (built in Dec '77). It's a few months older than I am and I plan to keep it until I stop flying. I did the avionics upgrades you are contemplating and it is a freaking sweet airplane. I love it so much and have no desire to upgrade to a restart. The paint scheme on mine isn't exactly thrilling but I'll get to that in a few years.

Point is, don't feel like you are settling with the '77. If you've got a good one in hand, I'd keep it. They are great planes.
 
As a longtime 'E' model owner, I have a few thoughts.

First, I see no practical advantage to the T model except for the metal panel and it's (maybe) 5 KTS faster? The higher price and loss of useful load are big down-sides, so stick with your Q. Once you really start using it for travel, useful load will be the number you care about most.

Second, as long as you're judicious in your upgrades, I think the increased value of the plane will be recognized. Maybe not dollar for dollar, but close enough to justify. This is especially true of the 182 as it seems to be the 'blue chip' stock of used piston singles. Always in high demand because they're just so darn practical.

Lastly, I'd buck conventional wisdom and say go ahead and repaint first if you want. True, it won't add any utility to the plane, but it's cheaper than updating the panel and it will eliminate a lot of the T model envy. I had crappy paint on mine for years and always felt a little self-conscious parking next to nicer birds, or pulling up to the fancy jet FBOs. I know it's only ego, but ever since the repaint, I get a lot of complements and it does feel nice. It's also motivated me to spend up a little to redo the interior. It's all cosmetic but it has a definite psychological effect.

C.
 
If you want more speed/climb capability, upgrade to Northpoint XP470 next time you do the engine.

The T will never have the useful load that a Q has. With the FreshPick MGTOW STC, most Q's will have around 1,300 lbs useful load. I think a T will be 100-120 lbs less useful load.
 
Great advice just keeps pouring in. I think I can get her dialed in and be happy!
 
Paint jobs:

1) Quality; 2) Schedule; 3)Price.

Pick one, if you're lucky, you might get 1 & 2 or, less likely, 2 & 3. 1 & 3 do not exist in the same universe.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Bryan,

If you haven't already, you should join the Cessna Pilots Society (www.cessna-pilots.net) (free). A lot of folks there with a lot of 182 knowledge.
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Cessna Pilots rocks. It's different than POA. No snarky replies, no funny meme answers. It's a friendly place but with more seriousness like BeechTalk. Also everyone appreciates an annual donation of a few bucks to the site keep to it running.
 
You won’t get all the money back if you upgrade the panel now and sell the plane later, but you will (a) enjoy the plane more while you have it and (b) sell it faster than without the upgrade. An engine monitor, MFD, and autopilot will make huge differences in your flying. You don’t really notice the paint if you’re inside the plane flying it instead of outside staring at it.
 
Get the private pilot certificate first! That will be the best accomplishment. Second keep the Q, third get the instrument rating, fourth upgrade avionics and autopilot, fourth paint. Or, wait to get the IR after the auto pilot installation.
 
Bryan Tate said:
...I am still a student pilot, have been flying for about a year, and am around the 110-hour mark. Just been taking my time and learning all I can with my friend/instructor. (taking trips with him now to learn that aspect)
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I missed all that. Your money and time is best spent flying what you have and gaining experience. The plane is already way more capable than you are.
 
Given the condition of your 182Q, going to a 182T restart isn't going to bring much to the table. Better fit and finish, two wire electrics, and epoxy paint corrosion proofing everywhere on the inside. Less useful load, bit of aero cleanup gives maybe 4-5 ktas down low and 7 ktas up high vis-a-vis the 182S which is aerodynamically the same as pre-restart versions I believe. No bladders in the restarts is nice as well. First few years are conventional avionics (you can do what you want to the panel) after that it's G1000 which is on the TC which may at some point be limiting.

Going to a T182T is a whole different world, opening up the flight levels and ktas in the 145-160 range depending on fuel burn and altitude.
 
Spend the money on a nice pant job. She won’t fly faster on less fuel but pride of ownership is worth it. You have a solid plane make her perfect for you. I’m very lucky to have a nice clean attractive 182P, 275’s, 430w, gfc500. Planning my next upgrade is sort of a hobby.
 
I don’t know if it’s just me or not but any 182 in the N,P,Q variety that’s I’ve flown out flies the T model. I think they feel much better on the controls and a smoother plane. Maybe I’m just making that up though.
 
Steamflyer said:
Better fit and finish, two wire electrics, and epoxy paint corrosion proofing everywhere on the inside.
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Add to that 26G seats, 3-blade prop, 13 fuel drains, wing mounted landing/taxi lights, double-pin door latches and flush baggage door latch.
Steamflyer said:
Less useful load, bit of aero cleanup gives maybe 4-5 ktas down low and 7 ktas up high vis-a-vis the 182S which is aerodynamically the same as pre-restart versions I believe.
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Restarts have the injected Lycoming, so the cooling path is different as is the cowling. I believe the wheel pants on the S are also different, at least from the Q if not the R. The T pants are entirely different from the rest of the line.

And speaking of the Lycoming which do you fear more, carb ice or fuel-injected hot starts? :)

Steamflyer said:
No bladders in the restarts is nice as well.
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I seem to recall they switched to wet wings partway through the Q's run.
 
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I would replace your Garmin 430 with an Avidyne 440 and add the AeroCruze AP. That's it.
You could get into another plane that looks shiny but has a lot of issues.
Your Q can also run on mogas, but T cannot.
Your Q likely has bladders, which I think is way better than wet wings.
 
asicer said:
And speaking of the Lycoming which do you fear more, carb ice or fuel-injected hot starts? :)
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I'd rather have a bad day on the ground than in the air. I really haven't minded hot starting my IO-360 (smaller, I know), but if it really gets to be a burden a Surefly is a pretty "cheap" fix.

MountainDude said:
I would replace your Garmin 430 with an Avidyne 440 and add the AeroCruze AP. That's it.
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Given they already have the 275s it's tough to justify that over the GFC-500. I'd do the AP first and then replace the 430W with a 650/750 some time later (what's the rush?).
 
MountainDude said:
add the AeroCruze AP
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Elsewhere on PoA:

Damon Jones said:
Typical response from Bendix - so I guess we just try it and see if it works then complain if it doesn't (but according to the note they don't plan to update this AP anytime soon.) - Really wishing I'd of bought a different autopilot now. Here is the response:

Thank you for contacting BendixKing by Honeywell:

Hello,

No changes need to be made on the autopilot as it only process a few 429 labels. The installation manual for the approved GPS shows the latest SW version TruTrak certified.
https://www.bendixking.com/content/...als/TT-186-Vizion-PMA-Approved-GPS-Manual.pdf

If you use a different SW version, you will need to fill out pg. 31 in the TT-186 manual and return it. So it can be added to the next revision.
Unfortunately Honeywell is not funding any expansion of this platform. I do not see any notes of Aspen sending us data on their testing of the new SW. I know the G5 will do vertical guidance to the autopilot but I have not herd the Aspen does so we unfortunately have no information on this interface.
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MountainDude said:
I would replace your Garmin 430 with an Avidyne 440 and add the AeroCruze AP. That's it.
You could get into another plane that looks shiny but has a lot of issues.
Your Q can also run on mogas, but T cannot.
Your Q likely has bladders, which I think is way better than wet wings.
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Ahhhh. Q's CANNOT run on mogas
 
Thanks again, I will get my license in the next month or so. My son will be going to School Science in Math up in Morganton; I also see my instructor/pilot flying up to get him for me some (its like 4 1/2 hours away by car) I also want to plane dialed in for him if he hits IMC. I do envision going straight into IFR training....
Ironically, I have restored old cars for most of my life; (working on a '68 Mustang Fastback GT 390 S code now) I think I was looking for some reasons to validate my choice to stick with the Q. I will look into the :Fresh Pick" STC, that alone seems like a big benefit
 
You might be able to turn your 20 foot paint into 5 or 10 feet with some detailing. I have 20yo paint on mine and at it looks like it was just painted. Costs way less than new if you have someone do it and costs only time if you do it yourself. Need to really be careful though as it's easy to burn through rivets and aluminum expands from the heat of polishing which can make your buffer harder to control. Look up Aviana Aircraft Detailing on youtube to get an idea of what's involved and some how-to's.
Another cost savings idea, why a 750 vs a 650? You can get the big screen on an ipad for a lot less than the 750 differential and it might lower the install cost.
 
Bryan Tate said:
2- Gi-275's, new Garmin audio panel, Garmin 430 Waas, LED lights, updated interior, no known issues-she flies great, some older fuel and temp monitors. She looks pretty good for an old girl. However, my autopilot didn't mesh with the new stuff so.
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Maybe post a good picture of your panel and provide a detailed description of the issue you are having with the autopilot? Always possible somebody here has an answer for you.
TrueCourse said:
Get the private pilot certificate first! That will be the best accomplishment.
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TCABM said:
Your money and time is best spent flying what you have and gaining experience. The plane is already way more capable than you are.
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:yeahthat:
Bryan Tate said:
I will get my license in the next month or so.
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Excellent!!! Get it done!!!

Bryan Tate said:
I also see my instructor/pilot flying up to get him for me some (its like 4 1/2 hours away by car) I also want to plane dialed in for him if he hits IMC.
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As soon as you get your PPL will you not be looking for reasons to fly anyhow? Anywhere? If you think you will be hitting IMC then land immediately. Use what you learned in PPL training.
 
There are many things to consider that you don’t need to put in this thread.

spouse (future spouse) likes flying? Kids? (Future kids?) More than two? Ages? My kids love flying except they nearly always had something else to do (sports, trips with friends, etc) - other interests change over the years

Destinations- flying to see friends/relatives might change over time. We had access to a year round vacation spot until…

Good luck
 
Only thing I can add is if you do go for a G1000 and plan on doing any IFR flying get one that is WAAS capable. I love flying behind my G1000 very much the only drawback is they are not very upgradable.
 
With your dual 275, I would put in the GFC 500 auto pilot and a GTN650xi, using your old GNS as your second nav/com and back up GPS. Skip paint and windows for another day.
 
LOL. I assume he’s got windows already. If they are badly glazed and he can’t see well in sun, etc - then yes as a safety measure replace the window. But I think a lot of people want repacement windows because it just looks better.
 
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