172S for the win

The Piper Archer soldiers on! Low wings for the win!!!

I wonder how these numbers would look if fleet type sales were removed. Much of the Cirrus sales are going to private owners or small private flying clubs. I wonder how many new 172S are going to private individuals, I'd bet at least 75% (or more) are going to large flight schools.. perhaps even international. Didn't Piper ink a deal a few years ago to sell 200 PA28 to China?

Either way.. fewer than 800 SE piston sales is incredibly tiny. How any of these guys manage to stay in business is a mystery.
 
genna said:
Not a mystery at all. By charging obscene money for each one they sell.
Click to expand...
And even then it's hardly worth it. Apparently Cessna makes more profit off one Citation than they do off all the 172s in a year.
 
Dan Thomas said:
And even then it's hardly worth it. Apparently Cessna makes more profit off one Citation than they do off all the 172s in a year.
Click to expand...
Wow! Are the margins really that thin?
 
genna said:
Not a mystery at all. By charging obscene money for each one they sell.
Click to expand...

In what way are they charging obscene money? Is their profit obscene or is it just the sales price that is offensive to you?
 
DA62 crushing it! That was a very unexpected result. Looking forward to those depreciating into my price range. Circa 2050 or so. :D

Remove the flight school purchases and yeah, it's basically the Cirrus show up there.
 
Two of the 54 cirrus sr20s were bought by a small flight school at my airport, so not sure the stereo-typification is accurate here. Frankly, most every new aircraft is being bought for a “fleet”.
 
Not a retract single on the list.
 
JOhnH said:
In what way are they charging obscene money? Is their profit obscene or is it just the sales price that is offensive to you?
Click to expand...

In a way that each new plane is very, very expensive. I said nothing about their profits or being offended by it. Let's not read anything extra into my statement.
 
genna said:
In a way that each new plane is very, very expensive. I said nothing about their profits or being offended by it. Let's not read anything extra into my statement.
Click to expand...
ok, I'll take your word for it,
but . . . you did say "obscene"

ob•scene ŏb-sēn′, əb-
►

  • adj.
    Offensive to accepted standards of decency.
 
JOhnH said:
ok, I'll take your word for it,
but . . . you did say "obscene"

ob•scene ŏb-sēn′, əb-
►

  • adj.
    Offensive to accepted standards of decency.
Click to expand...

Ok, I'll accept the schooling and will fall upon my ESL roots as my defense. :). I perfectly understand why they are charging what they are charging. I just don't have to like it :)
 
Salty said:
sr20
Click to expand...
The SR20 mostly goes to flight schools. It's decently "fast" (compared to a PA28) but the climb rate and useful load are rather.. umm.. thin.. most people with Cirrus cash are going for SR22.. and most people with SR20 are going to go for something used (not new), at least from what I've seen and heard

Dan Thomas said:
Apparently Cessna makes more profit off one Citation than they do off all the 172s in a year.
Click to expand...
This always boggled me. The plane is effectively unchanged.. all the tooling, everything, should be there to stamp out these sheet metal bits and rivet them together. "But they're all handbuilt" ?? After 44,000 examples they haven't found a cheaper/faster/smoother way to build them? AvWeb did a video at the Cessna plant a few years ago and it seems like a haphazard operation all getting done by hand and largely trial and error "we just learned that if we put the propeller on AFTER the plane is easier to paint!" .. wow. Compare that to the Cirrus factory tour where they have predrilled laser holes, automated jigs, and a handful of people working through a very Toyota-esq production plan

schmookeeg said:
DA62 crushing it! That was a very unexpected result. Looking forward to those depreciating into my price range. Circa 2050 or so. :D
Click to expand...
You and me both!
 
Tantalum said:
This always boggled me. The plane is effectively unchanged.. all the tooling, everything, should be there to stamp out these sheet metal bits and rivet them together. "But they're all handbuilt" ?? After 44,000 examples they haven't found a cheaper/faster/smoother way to build them? AvWeb did a video at the Cessna plant a few years ago and it seems like a haphazard operation all getting done by hand and largely trial and error "we just learned that if we put the propeller on AFTER the plane is easier to paint!" .. wow. Compare that to the Cirrus factory tour where they have predrilled laser holes, automated jigs, and a handful of people working through a very Toyota-esq production plan
Click to expand...

I get what you are saying. Cirrus has built about 7500 SR planes. With all that Toyota-esq production plan, I seriously doubt that their production costs are significantly lower than Cessna's. Or that Cessna could lower its cost by a significant margin on each 172 without a prohibitive investment. Part of it is being a victim of its own success(years ago).

In any case, they are not really compelled to do any of it. Trainers is what they are selling. Cheaper than SR20(to buy and operate), that's all they need to be.
 
Amazing that "garbage" sells so well!
 
It really is. But the Camry sells well too..
 
Tantalum said:
It really is. But the Camry sells well too..
Click to expand...

I resent the implication that Camry is garbage. Mind you, I really do not like Camrys. But I think - end evidently many others do to - that It's a nearly perfect car for a huge number of people in this country. And that is to get up to 4-5 adults from point A to point B with good comfort, great reliability, and no fuss. And cheaply if you take all costs into account. Any day, every day. Well, RAV4 is "more perfect" now days. Corolla fits that bill too.

Edit: Boring - yes, garbage - definitely no.

There are many countries in the world where a Camry is a premium and aspirational vehicle that few can afford
 
it's more an illustration that just because something sells in large volumes doesn't necessarily make it "good"

granted, "good" and "garbage" depend on how they're defined

FWIW I drive a Toyota and love the thing.
 
Camry and most Toyota stuff is generally engineered to last longer than the competition. Boring but reliable.

Karen’s mom saying she’s stopping driving means she may sell her Avalon with only a little over 100K on it. We’re tempted to add another old car to our fleet because we know it was flawlessly maintained and will easily run to 300K.

Good road trip or people hauler car in summer.

I need another car like I need a hole in my head, but for as little as she’ll want for it in cash, it’s almost a no-brainer. Keep it in the family and slam miles on it.

Boring, hell yes. It’s like driving a sofa with a huge trunk. LOL.
 
denverpilot said:
with only a little over 100K on it
Click to expand...
ha! that's practically brand new for a Toyota. The FJ is at 99,000 now and while that's mostly highway it's also done it's fair share of hot desert four wheeling. Covered 50 off high miles in death valley just last weekend. It feels, looks, drives, smells new.

My friend's Tacoma has 280K on it.. I don't think it's ever been through a car wash and probably goes 5 years between oil changes. It soldiers on. It also does a fair bit of overlanding.
 
asicer said:
Textron/Beech put this out yesterday. Maybe that'll kickstart things... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I’m embarrassed to say that I, like most pilots, have heard of Walter Beech, but never knew about Olive Ann Beech, so I did a little reading. Quite an impressive woman.
 
Dave Theisen said:
I’m embarrassed to say that I, like most pilots, have heard of Walter Beech, but never knew about Olive Ann Beech, so I did a little reading. Quite an impressive woman.
Click to expand...
I'm a bit surprised that Olive's favorite color was light blue instead of olive green.
 
Tantalum said:
it's more an illustration that just because something sells in large volumes doesn't necessarily make it "good"

granted, "good" and "garbage" depend on how they're defined

FWIW I drive a Toyota and love the thing.
Click to expand...

Oh, but it does though. If something is sold in numbers larger than the rest for a long time(so as to resolve all the potential unknown issues and marketing bs) it is actually a pretty good definition that it is "good" and maybe even "best" by the best standard: consumers paying with their own money. That certainly doesn't mean that it's best for everyone or that everyone considers it being best. I certainly don't consider Camry to be best for my needs and would not likely buy one anytime soon. But "best" for most is definitely "good". ahm... Cirrus much?
 
asicer said:
Textron/Beech put this out yesterday. Maybe that'll kickstart things... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Both Clyde Cessna and the Beech’s would be rolling over in their graves if they saw how these bright smart Textron MBA’s are running these businesses without any passion or interest in their customers or the aviation community at large.
 
asicer said:
Textron/Beech put this out yesterday. Maybe that'll kickstart things... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

That's brilliant. Let's try to market an already outdated aircraft by giving it a paint scheme from the 1950s that appeals to an old woman.
 
Last edited:
schmookeeg said:
DA62 crushing it! That was a very unexpected result. Looking forward to those depreciating into my price range. Circa 2050 or so. :D
Click to expand...

Sadly it was 62 units of the DA42 sold (I'm guessing mostly flight schools). You might have to wait a little longer for your DA62.
 
Cervieres said:
Sadly it was 62 units of the DA42 sold (I'm guessing mostly flight schools). You might have to wait a little longer for your DA62.
Click to expand...

Oh, dang, reading comprehension fail on my part, and probably more than a little wishful thinking. Sigh.

Well, yeah, the flight schools dominate everything but those Cirri then.
 
denverpilot said:
Camry and most Toyota stuff is generally engineered to last longer than the competition. Boring but reliable.

Karen’s mom saying she’s stopping driving means she may sell her Avalon with only a little over 100K on it. We’re tempted to add another old car to our fleet because we know it was flawlessly maintained and will easily run to 300K.

Good road trip or people hauler car in summer.

I need another car like I need a hole in my head, but for as little as she’ll want for it in cash, it’s almost a no-brainer. Keep it in the family and slam miles on it.

Boring, hell yes. It’s like driving a sofa with a huge trunk. LOL.
Click to expand...
Why don't you do a few fellow pilots a favor and see if a local FBO would like to buy it as a courtesy car!
 
Tantalum said:
This always boggled me. The plane is effectively unchanged.. all the tooling, everything, should be there to stamp out these sheet metal bits and rivet them together. "But they're all handbuilt" ?? After 44,000 examples they haven't found a cheaper/faster/smoother way to build them? AvWeb did a video at the Cessna plant a few years ago and it seems like a haphazard operation all getting done by hand and largely trial and error "we just learned that if we put the propeller on AFTER the plane is easier to paint!" .. wow. Compare that to the Cirrus factory tour where they have predrilled laser holes, automated jigs, and a handful of people working through a very Toyota-esq production plan
Click to expand...

You've never been in the various iterations of the 172. The 1956 is not the same as the 1966, which is not the same as the 1976, which is not the same as the 1986, which is not the same as the 1996. There are numerous structural differences, many of them not obvious to the average pilot. All one has to do is study the parts manuals for the various years and see that many things changed over the years. The '56 model might have the same Type Certificate as the 2021 model, but that's about it. A similarity on paper. Every time Cessna changed something they had to get certification on it. Every time FAR23 was updated, any new model had to incorporate those changes.

So that means different jigs, lots of them. Different castings, weldments, attach methods, hardware, the lot. It's not as easy or simple as some people assume. I've been in many models of these things, and the differences are striking.
 
Last edited:
RyanB said:
Wow! Are the margins really that thin?
Click to expand...
Well, considering Cessna still builds 172s like Henry Ford built cars BEFORE he started using assembly lines... yes margins are thin.

A C172/182/206 are still very labor intensive. Not a whole much more automation than if you bought an RV-10 quick build kit and built it in your garage.

Chicken or egg deal... they don't want to invest a lot of money in advanced automation assembly lines because they don't sell enough to make it worth it... but since it is so stupid expensive to buy a soda can with an engine, they can't increase sales... and the dog keeps chasing it's tail.

At this point I truly believe Cessna only builds 172/182/206s anymore because it's tradition and 'looks good' providing PR.
 
jrollf said:
At this point I truly believe Cessna only builds 172/182/206s anymore because it's tradition and 'looks good' providing PR.
Click to expand...
Cessna used to sell a lot of 150s to flight schools, most likely at very little markup, knowing that a person who got their initial training in a Cessna was much more likely to buy one rather than a Piper or Mooney or Beech. And a PPL who buys a 172 will most likely want to upgrade to a 182 or even a 206 someday. Brand loyalty, and it might still be in play here, too, with the (much) wealthier student eventually buying a Citation.
 
Todd82 said:
I've always wondered if Schmiiiindy is a member here lurking incognito.
Click to expand...

She's based out of FFC just south of Atlanta. I've followed her on instagram for a few years. She was a sales rep for Textron (Beech/Cessna) until not long ago when she was promoted further up the chain with them. Just all just got her type rating for the Citations not too long ago. She lives on a grass strip a little further south of FFC and owns a taildragger. Her husband works for ATC at ZTL and just got his private. That doesn't make me sound like a stalker does it? :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top