135 Pay Scales

Captain

Captain

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Got an odd request at work. I was asked to see if I can't compile a list of pay scales and work rules for various 135 operators listed by equipment. ProPilot just released a massive spreadsheet listing pay for all sorts of GA equipment from G650 to C410 but they only give average, high and low pay per seat.

I'm looking for the details; big wings has Hawker 800's and the pay scale is PIC / SIC, year 1 through 15 as well as schedule, 401K match, bases, upgrade time, etc.

AirlinePilotCentral.com has exactly the format I'm looking for but they don't touch corporate aviation. Their 135 and Charter sections only list carriers like Atlas and Omni and the like.

Anyone have an idea here? Thanks in advance,

Captain
 
To be quite honest, I don't think one exists for this segment of the industry, besides the fractionals. Sounds like your project is going to involve a lot of research.
 
kgruber said:
I have always found those published pay scales to be wildly optimistic.
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I've always thought that about every industry. Always wondered where those figures came from.

When I got out of college 25 years ago I remember an article in the school paper listing the average starting salaries for recent graduates. They had to have been $10K higher than reality. And couple that with the fact that a good percentage of the kids graduating with me had been looking for work the last semester and couldn't even land interviews.

My guess is that either people wildly inflate their income on surveys or only the top tiers bother to complete the surveys.
 
Most part 135 companies have a set pay scale for their equipment. It's published for their pilots to refrence along with work rules and vacation, time off, ect.

My guess is the 135 industry would benefit from having published pay scales. A pilot at Big Wings could see that another pilot at Big Sky flying the same equipment is making more or has more time off or whatever. That would serve to lift the pay of all 135 pilots.

I think I'm going to re-tool my website to capture this underserved segment. Right now all I have is basically a forum. I'm not so hot with python so writing my own scripts is probably not going to happen. I think I'll just make it forum based for now and see what happens. If anyone with coding experience would like to offer input or help with the heavy lifting please feel free to offer. (The key word is 'free'. Sorry, I have no money to offer but would be open to partnership / profit sharing).

My website is vnrpilots.com.
 
Captain said:
Got an odd request at work. I was asked to see if I can't compile a list of pay scales and work rules for various 135 operators listed by equipment. ProPilot just released a massive spreadsheet listing pay for all sorts of GA equipment from G650 to C410 but they only give average, high and low pay per seat.

I'm looking for the details; big wings has Hawker 800's and the pay scale is PIC / SIC, year 1 through 15 as well as schedule, 401K match, bases, upgrade time, etc.

AirlinePilotCentral.com has exactly the format I'm looking for but they don't touch corporate aviation. Their 135 and Charter sections only list carriers like Atlas and Omni and the like.

Anyone have an idea here? Thanks in advance,

Captain
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Captain,

I was looking through the APC stuff and didn't realize Avantair shut down. Where are you now?
 
Captain said:
Most part 135 companies have a set pay scale for their equipment. It's published for their pilots to refrence along with work rules and vacation, time off, ect.

My guess is the 135 industry would benefit from having published pay scales. A pilot at Big Wings could see that another pilot at Big Sky flying the same equipment is making more or has more time off or whatever. That would serve to lift the pay of all 135 pilots.

I think I'm going to re-tool my website to capture this underserved segment. Right now all I have is basically a forum. I'm not so hot with python so writing my own scripts is probably not going to happen. I think I'll just make it forum based for now and see what happens. If anyone with coding experience would like to offer input or help with the heavy lifting please feel free to offer. (The key word is 'free'. Sorry, I have no money to offer but would be open to partnership / profit sharing).

My website is vnrpilots.com.
Click to expand...
I suspect, in many 135 operations, it would be extremely highly frowned upon for their pilots to jump on there and just start pasting their salaries into a forum. Given the fact that like many such private companies people doing the same job aren't always paid the same thing.

Careful with this one. You're playing with fire. This can't work like it does for the airlines with their big unions...
 
jesse said:
I suspect, in many 135 operations, it would be extremely highly frowned upon for their pilots to jump on there and just start pasting their salaries into a forum. Given the fact that like many such private companies people doing the same job aren't always paid the same thing.

Careful with this one. You're playing with fire. This can't work like it does for the airlines with their big unions...
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Ah, I've thought of this. On my forum I lean heavily on anonymity. A pilot could post their pay scale and that their DO eats buggers and nobody would know who said it.

(BTW, any of you ding dongs go over to my site and out me there and I'll ban you forever! It's a happy place really...but 'outing' is a serious offense. It started as an underground forum so I hope you can understand...)
 
Captain said:
Ah, I've thought of this. On my forum I lean heavily on anonymity. A pilot could post their pay scale and that their DO eats buggers and nobody would know who said it.

(BTW, any of you ding dongs go over to my site and out me there and I'll ban you forever! It's a happy place really...but 'outing' is a serious offense. It started as an underground forum so I hope you can understand...)
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Not too terribly difficult to figure out who posted what when you're the HR department and know who makes what and who gets what benefits.

Why would someone trust their career to the anonymity of your website?

I get what you're trying to do..it's just not that simple to do well and doesn't work outside of the large union workforces.

BTW, you've already outed yourself Captain by saying it's your website on this forum. Sloppy mistakes like that lead to trails on Google that people can easily use to identify you. I would have thought you'd learn that lesson by now.
 
jesse said:
Not too terribly difficult to figure out who posted what when you're the HR department and know who makes what and who gets what benefits.

Why would someone trust their career to the anonymity of your website?

I get what you're trying to do..it's just not that simple to do well and doesn't work outside of the large union workforces.

BTW, you've already outed yourself Captain by saying it's your website on this forum. Sloppy mistakes like that lead to trails on Google that people can easily use to identify you. I would have thought you'd learn that lesson by now.
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You have quite accurately communicated the position in which "Captain" has placed himself and is requesting others to place themselves. Programmers learn to think about unintended consequences, other folks maybe not so much.
 
jesse said:
Not too terribly difficult to figure out who posted what when you're the HR department and know who makes what and who gets what benefits.

Why would someone trust their career to the anonymity of your website?

I get what you're trying to do..it's just not that simple to do well and doesn't work outside of the large union workforces.

BTW, you've already outed yourself Captain by saying it's your website on this forum. Sloppy mistakes like that lead to trails on Google that people can easily use to identify you. I would have thought you'd learn that lesson by now.
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Nah, Avantair management is busy trying to not go to jail. They don't care about the employee underground website anymore than they care about 401K contributions. I'm on my site every day, several times a day. If anyone outs me there it'll be gone within a few hours...and even if someone notices, so what?
 
jesse said:
I suspect, in many 135 operations, it would be extremely highly frowned upon for their pilots to jump on there and just start pasting their salaries into a forum. Given the fact that like many such private companies people doing the same job aren't always paid the same thing.

Careful with this one. You're playing with fire. This can't work like it does for the airlines with their big unions...
Click to expand...


Huh? Maybe this is my labor culture insensitivity as a lifetime public sector worker, but why is salary transparency such blasphemy in America? Other than to keep the proletariat underpaid that is. What's the problem? Serious question.

We always joke that white people could non-chalantly tell you all the perverted [and illegal in a couple Southern state's constitutions...] sexual things they do to their wives at home, but ask a white man how much they make and holy hell they'd react like you just strangled their first born. I've never understood that cultural sensitivity.
 
Clark1961 said:
You have quite accurately communicated the position in which "Captain" has placed himself and is requesting others to place themselves. Programmers learn to think about unintended consequences, other folks maybe not so much.
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For the record, vnrpilots.com has never outed anyone. It's a different concept than here. It's not right or better, just different. Like I said, anonymity, out of necessity, was important there from the get go. So it's the holy grail. Nobody outs anybody. The mods and I watch the forum closely for any hint. If it happens (and it has) the offender get talked to whilst their account is suspended.

It's just different. It has to be as people could lose their jobs if it wasn't that way. The culture is already set and I'm not too worried about it.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to locate 135 pay information or see if anyone would like to help write code for a site that will fill that need.
 
dang, if only the site was open to scmucks like us.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Huh? Maybe this is my labor culture insensitivity as a lifetime public sector worker, but why is salary transparency such blasphemy in America? Other than to keep the proletariat underpaid that is. What's the problem? Serious question.

We always joke that white people could non-chalantly tell you all the perverted [and illegal in a couple Southern state's constitutions...] sexual things they do to their wives at home, but ask a white man how much they make and holy hell they'd react like you just strangled their first born. I've never understood that cultural sensitivity.
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Some employees are worth more than other employees even if they are doing the same role, technically, on paper. The ability to handle those situations in the private sector is what allows the private sector to be efficient and allows you to reward the employees that truly deserve the reward.

Why aren't the best people, as a whole, in the public sector? Because they wouldn't be paid enough. Too many rules about salary.
 
Gerhardt said:
dang, if only the site was open to scmucks like us.
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It's open to anybody with a computer and an internet. Sorry, but I insist on those two things. I'm not going to drive to your house with updates...

:)
 
Captain said:
I'm looking for the details; big wings has Hawker 800's and the pay scale is PIC / SIC, year 1 through 15 as well as schedule, 401K match, bases, upgrade time, etc.
Click to expand...
I see what you are trying to do and I agree that this information is somewhat lacking. However, I'm going to guess that most companies you are wanting information from don't have any set scale like that. Most are not union, and pilots don't have contracts. You know what your pay and position is today and you might even be able to guess what starting pay for a certain position is, but there's no way you can predict five years, let alone 15 years in the future. Also many 135s are hybrid 135/management companies now, and some of the pay and schedules are influenced by the person or company who actually owns the airplane. So just because one pilot has a certain experience at a company doesn't mean it's going to be duplicated for the next pilot.
 
jesse said:
Careful with this one. You're playing with fire. This can't work like it does for the airlines with their big unions...
Click to expand...

I don't think he is. I work in 135 and the company I work for has their pay scale widely published on the internet. It's not secret how crappy it is.
 
hindsight2020 said:
Huh? Maybe this is my labor culture insensitivity as a lifetime public sector worker, but why is salary transparency such blasphemy in America? Other than to keep the proletariat underpaid that is. What's the problem? Serious question.

We always joke that white people could non-chalantly tell you all the perverted [and illegal in a couple Southern state's constitutions...] sexual things they do to their wives at home, but ask a white man how much they make and holy hell they'd react like you just strangled their first born. I've never understood that cultural sensitivity.
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How much do you make a year ? :D
 
If I was a 135 operator and found out that I was overpaying, I'd have to make some adjustments.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
If I was a 135 operator and found out that I was overpaying, I'd have to make some adjustments.


JKG
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I'd imagine most of them aren't 'overpaying'. In fact, I think the shear fact that they are quiet about pay is indicative of low pay. I'd also wager sunlight on the issue would equal more money in pilots pockets.
 
Captain said:
Anyway, the point of this thread is to locate 135 pay information or see if anyone would like to help write code for a site that will fill that need.
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I understand that you don't understand.
 
Art VanDelay said:
How much do you make a year ? :D
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These days I make O-3 payscale, BAH w/dependents for a zip code in FOB Mejico, and aviation incentive pay for >6 YAS but <14. If you can count with your fingers you should be able to add those 4 or 5 pay tabulations into a gross figure.

http://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/militarypaytables.html There ya go my man.

My pay is a matter of public knowledge and I take pride in the transparency of that fact.


--break break--

The whole "I've got a secret" bit about private compensation only works for knowledge workers. Technicians aka manual operators, such as pilots, don't really bring much differentiation in service to warrant the justification in an employer keeping their income information a secret from said employee's peers. As a matter of fact, a pilot is bred and employed from day 1 to be a carbon copy of his co-workers. No room to income differentiate. Sure, the Rod Machados and other Mickey Mouse token CFIs may attempt to re-package their knowledge in a way that can net them above median income via branding, but by and large pylets are assembly line workers expected to run standardized work flows and follow checklists.
 
Captain said:
My guess is the 135 industry would benefit from having published pay scales. A pilot at Big Wings could see that another pilot at Big Sky flying the same equipment is making more or has more time off or whatever. That would serve to lift the pay of all 135 pilots.
Click to expand...

The * industry * wouldn't benefit. The pilots might. Heh.
 
Captain said:
My guess is the 135 industry would benefit from having published pay scales. A pilot at Big Wings could see that another pilot at Big Sky flying the same equipment is making more or has more time off or whatever. That would serve to lift the pay of all 135 pilots.
Click to expand...

Then why doesn't DAL or UAL bring their pay scales up to FedEx level?

Those are published, why would it work in 135 but not in 121? :dunno:
 
Captain said:
I'd imagine most of them aren't 'overpaying'. In fact, I think the shear fact that they are quiet about pay is indicative of low pay. I'd also wager sunlight on the issue would equal more money in pilots pockets.
Click to expand...

If they're all underpaying by various amounts, how is publishing pay scales going to change that? The short answer is, it isn't. They all know what the market rate is in their industry, so they don't need you to tell them. Now, if pilots want to unionize, demand higher pay, and shrink the industry through higher prices and possible bankruptcies of otherwise solvent businesses, I suppose that is their choice. Seems counterproductive, though.


JKG
 
At least the kids will be able to figure out their 20 year student loan repayment plan and how much they'll have left for the crash pad. :)
 
JGoodish said:
If they're all underpaying by various amounts, how is publishing pay scales going to change that? The short answer is, it isn't. They all know what the market rate is in their industry, so they don't need you to tell them. Now, if pilots want to unionize, demand higher pay, and shrink the industry through higher prices and possible bankruptcies of otherwise solvent businesses, I suppose that is their choice. Seems counterproductive, though.


JKG
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Yeah, let's keep that rumor floating around. You're hysterical man !
 
JGoodish said:
If they're all underpaying by various amounts, how is publishing pay scales going to change that? The short answer is, it isn't. They all know what the market rate is in their industry, so they don't need you to tell them. Now, if pilots want to unionize, demand higher pay, and shrink the industry through higher prices and possible bankruptcies of otherwise solvent businesses, I suppose that is their choice. Seems counterproductive, though.


JKG
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Somebody works in airline management.
 
Which pilots typically make more, 135 guys or part 91 guys flying corporate? (Assuming same AC types)
 
LearDriver said:
It's been my experience that 91 guys make more money.
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So do most typically start out in 135 ops and move "up" to 91 ops? Is it harder to get a 91 job?

That's the reverse of what I would think based on the increased scrutiny that the FAA gives to 135...
 
jesse said:
I suspect, in many 135 operations, it would be extremely highly frowned upon for their pilots to jump on there and just start pasting their salaries into a forum. Given the fact that like many such private companies people doing the same job aren't always paid the same thing.

Careful with this one. You're playing with fire. This can't work like it does for the airlines with their big unions...
Click to expand...

You do know there are some 135 ops that publish tbeir pay scales?
 
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