121 Time Logging

[WannaBePiloto]

Hey folks,

I'm new to the 121 world. I wanted to see if I'm logging things correctly:

I've been logging all flights as SIC and Cross Country even if I'm not at the controls.

I log instrument time only if in actual IMC while at the controls and approaches while at the controls of course only if IMC at FaF.

Other than that I just log Day/Night landings if at the controls.

Does this sound pretty standard? Just want to make sure I'm not messing it up and having to go back and fix things later.

Thanks!

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Hey folks,

I'm new to the 121 world. I wanted to see if I'm logging things correctly:

I've been logging all flights as SIC and Cross Country even if I'm not at the controls.

I log instrument time only if in actual IMC while at the controls and approaches while at the controls of course only if IMC at FaF.

Other than that I just log Day/Night landings if at the controls.

Does this sound pretty standard? Just want to make sure I'm not messing it up and having to go back and fix things later.

Thanks!

That is how I did it.

By current logging regulations you are justified logging sole manipulator time as PIC so long as you are PIC type rated in the aircraft, but I never bothered.

 

[WannaBePiloto]

That is how I did it.

By current logging regulations you are justified logging sole manipulator time as PIC so long as you are PIC type rated in the aircraft, but I never bothered.

Awesome thanks for the reply!

 

[Clip4]

Hey folks,

I'm new to the 121 world. I wanted to see if I'm logging things correctly:

I've been logging all flights as SIC and Cross Country even if I'm not at the controls.

I log instrument time only if in actual IMC while at the controls and approaches while at the controls of course only if IMC at FaF.

Other than that I just log Day/Night landings if at the controls.

Does this sound pretty standard? Just want to make sure I'm not messing it up and having to go back and fix things later.

Thanks!

You got to the 121 world and don’t know how to research Part 61 regs?

f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraftor the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;

(g) Logging instrument time.

(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

61.1(b)(i)-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The question is, whom are you logging for? Part 61 logging rules apply to all flights being logged for FAA certificates, ratings, qualification, and currency. There is no separate Part 121 logging rule. At the same time, those in the Part 121 world feel the need to log in a way that their logbooks reflect the information potential employers want to see. In certain respects the FAA's and the Company's rules may be different and sometimes in conflict.

 

[WannaBePiloto]

You got to the 121 world and don’t know how to research Part 61 regs?

f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:
(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraftor the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;

(g) Logging instrument time.

(1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

61.1(b)(i)-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

Yes

 

[RussR]

That is how I did it.

By current logging regulations you are justified logging sole manipulator time as PIC so long as you are PIC type rated in the aircraft, but I never bothered.

That is correct.

For the OP, I would make sure to have some way to differentiate between Part 121 PIC logging ("sign for the jet" PIC) vs Part 61 PIC (sole manipulator).

Different people care about different times for different purposes. From previous discussions here, I'm told that if you show up to an airline interview claiming lots of airliner PIC time when you weren't a Captain, you will be laughed at. On the other hand, though, outside of the airlines, for example if an insurer requires 1000 turbine PIC, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot to not claim your Part 61 sole manipulator time.

 

[jayhawk74]

WannaBePiloto
Once I started flying 135, and continuing throughout my 121 career, I never logged sole manipulator PIC. All my time I logged exactly as you are doing.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Different people care about different times for different purposes. From previous discussions here, I'm told that if you show up to an airline interview claiming lots of airliner PIC time when you weren't a Captain, you will be laughed at. On the other hand, though, outside of the airlines, for example if an insurer requires 1000 turbine PIC, you'd be shooting yourself in the foot to not claim your Part 61 sole manipulator time.

It's the difference between data and reports. One of the great things about electronic logging is the ability to log per the regulations to create a pool of data that can then be queried to answer the question you are asked.

 

[jordane93]

Hey folks,

I'm new to the 121 world. I wanted to see if I'm logging things correctly:

I've been logging all flights as SIC and Cross Country even if I'm not at the controls.

I log instrument time only if in actual IMC while at the controls and approaches while at the controls of course only if IMC at FaF.

Other than that I just log Day/Night landings if at the controls.

Does this sound pretty standard? Just want to make sure I'm not messing it up and having to go back and fix things later.

Thanks!

Yes

 

[Busflyer]

I think future interviewers are going to look at you funny trying to explain the PIC time in your logbook when you’re the SIC. I wouldn’t bother.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I think future interviewers are going to look at you funny trying to explain the PIC time in your logbook when you’re the SIC. I wouldn’t bother.

If they were worth their salt, they would already know about this And not think anything of it.

I hate not logging legitimate time just because someone else MIGHT NOT understand it.

Besides, I don’t think a 121 interviewer is going to look that close at other 121 time. If asked, just say it was logged IAW 61.51 whatever.

 

[Palmpilot]

My understanding: There's Part 1.1 PIC time, and there's 61.51 PIC time.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

If you have an iOS phone use LogTen. Just move the pilot flying slider to the appropriate side and it does it for you.

Then again if you’re at an airline and don’t know how to properly log your flight time please forward your schedule to me so I can make sure I never sit aft of your door.

 

[WannaBePiloto]

Hey I appreciate the feedback folks.

For those of you all hot and bothered over the fact that I'm at a 121 and wanting clarification; sorry about it.
Turns out when you get your ATP you don't magically know everything and still appreciate group feedback on various topics from time to time.

Thanks again gang!

 

[Palmpilot]

If you have an iOS phone use LogTen. Just move the pilot flying slider to the appropriate side and it does it for you.

Then again if you’re at an airline and don’t know how to properly log your flight time please forward your schedule to me so I can make sure I never sit aft of your door.

How many airline accidents are attributable to a pilot having confusion about PIC logging regulations vs airline expectations of logged PIC time?

 

[midlifeflyer]

If they were worth their salt, they would already know about this And not think anything of it.

I hate not logging legitimate time just because someone else MIGHT NOT understand it.

Besides, I don’t think a 121 interviewer is going to look that close at other 121 time. If asked, just say it was logged IAW 61.51 whatever.

When I hear this stuff about the airlines not liking it, I always wonder other FAA rules they don’t like.

 

[Larry in TN]

When I hear this stuff about the airlines not liking it, I always wonder other FAA rules they don’t like.

It's not that they don't like it, it's that it is not what they ask for.

When you fill out an airline app they will specify that they want the PIC figures to be time that you were the PIC of the flight. If you don't have a way to figure that out you'll have a difficult time filling out the applications. When they review your logbooks in an interview, they will be looking to see if the times you submitted are backed up by reliable log entries.

If you want to track 61.51 PIC, but intend to apply to airlines, track the two types of PIC separately.

Once you have an ATP, there aren't many reasons to track 61.51 PIC as you no longer need additional 61.51 PIC for additional ratings. Insurance forms, for GA or corporate flying, are the other reason I can think of.

 

[RyanShort1]

When I hear this stuff about the airlines not liking it, I always wonder other FAA rules they don’t like.

The airlines probably ask for that because their insurance asks for that. Nothing about liking or disliking a logging reg.

 

[midlifeflyer]

It's not that they don't like it, it's that it is not what they ask for.

What they ask for is not an issue. You always give a potential employer what they ask for. That's not a problem at all. Neither is that extra "Part 1 PIC" column.

It's the difference between data and reports. One of the great things about electronic logging is the ability to log per the regulations to create a pool of data that can then be queried to answer the question you are asked.

What I have seen through several decades are posts suggesting they don't like the way you entered the data in your logbook if you do it in accordance with the FAA's rules.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The airlines probably ask for that because their insurance asks for that. Nothing about liking or disliking a logging reg.

Same comment I made above.

I don't log for insurance applications, but I can report what they want with the data entered per the regulations. I've never logged cross country with Part 135 minimums in mind, but I can give you my point-to-point cross country time in about a minute.

 

[Larry in TN]

What I have seen through several decades are posts suggesting they don't like the way you entered the data in your logbook if you do it in accordance with the FAA's rules.

They want to see logbooks which give them confidence that the numbers you entered on your application are accurate. If your logbooks only show 61.51 PIC time then you need to explain how you determined the 1.1 PIC time that you entered on their application. If you have a lot of part 121 SIC time logged as PIC then it needs to be clear how you were able to remove it from your PIC total, and include it in your SIC total, when filling out the application.

When I went to interviews, I included, with my logbooks, a single page of explanatory information. This included book and page numbers for significant check rides and how and when I transitioned from paper logbooks to electronic ones. The idea was for that page to answer any questions that may have come up with the logbooks were reviewed.

How you choose to organize your logbook is up to you. Just do it in a way that will facilitate the purposes for which it will be used in the future.

 

[midlifeflyer]

They want to see logbooks which give them confidence that the numbers you entered on your application are accurate. If your logbooks only show 61.51 PIC time then you need to explain how you determined the 1.1 PIC time that you entered on their application. If you have a lot of part 121 SIC time logged as PIC then it needs to be clear how you were able to remove it from your PIC total, and include it in your SIC total, when filling out the application.

When I went to interviews, I included, with my logbooks, a single page of explanatory information. This included book and page numbers for significant check rides and how and when I transitioned from paper logbooks to electronic ones. The idea was for that page to answer any questions that may have come up with the logbooks were reviewed.

How you choose to organize your logbook is up to you. Just do it in a way that will facilitate the purposes for which it will be used in the future.

Agree completely.

BTW, I have also heard they don't like safety pilot PIC time which, interestingly enough, is 1.1 PIC time.

 

[unsafervguy]

We can discuss 61.51 and 1.1 all day, but bottom line is once your flying 121 your either sic or pic by who signs for the jet. Your not trying to get hrs to qualify for anything. another 121 will look at every other leg logged as pic as say yea, not. At that level
its just ego to log pic when your wearing three stripes. Unless im signing for the jet I’m sic. That how I’ve always done it and so has everybody else I know does it.

 

[RussR]

Your not trying to get hrs to qualify for anything.

But you don't really know that, do you? Maybe you get hired as an FO at the regionals and intend to fly for the airlines until retirement. Great. But then you get furloughed and try to find a job flying corporate. "Hey, sure, since you were an airline pilot we can hire you directly into the left seat! As long as you have 1000 turbine PIC, that's what our insurance requires. Oh wait, you don't? Well then we can only hire you into the right seat for a lot less money."

Is this example perhaps a bit contrived? Absolutely. Could it happen? Also absolutely. Would it make you wish you logged 61.51 PIC time? Very likely.

My method has always been to log everything possible - you can always weed it out or sort it or manipulate it later if you have the data. But if you don't, you're out of luck.

 

[kayoh190]

My method has always been to log everything possible - you can always weed it out or sort it or manipulate it later if you have the data. But if you don't, you're out of luck.

Out of luck? What's to stop anyone from manipulating it in the other direction? I can convert 50% (or whatever you want to hand-wave as sole manipulator) of my SIC into PIC in just a few minutes if needed for insurance (not that they'd ever ask for my logbook).

 

[RussR]

Out of luck? What's to stop anyone from manipulating it in the other direction? I can convert 50% (or whatever you want to hand-wave as sole manipulator) of my SIC into PIC in just a few minutes if needed for insurance (not that they'd ever ask for my logbook).

Nothing's stopping anybody from hand-waving any amount of time they want, except of course their personal sense of ethics. I prefer to be accurate.

 

[kayoh190]

Nothing's stopping anybody from hand-waving any amount of time they want, except of course their personal sense of ethics. I prefer to be accurate.

Technically correct is the best kind of correct, right?

Like @unsafervguy said, at this level I'm more interested in my logbook being a record of my actual experience.

 

[RussR]

Technically correct is the best kind of correct, right?

Like @unsafervguy said, at this level I'm more interested in my logbook being a record of my actual experience.

"Hand waving" to me implied guessing, like "yeah about half that was 61.51 PIC and the other half was 1.1 PIC". I'm not comfortable with just guessing, when it's easy and simple to have accurate numbers.

I also am interested in my logbook being a record of my actual experience. It seems we agree on that. I don't fly 121, but I do fly Part 135 and log "Acting PIC", "PIC", or "SIC" depending on what function I'm filling so that I can answer accurately to whoever is asking the question for whatever purpose and whichever definition they need.

 

[Lindberg]

Like @unsafervguy said, at this level I'm more interested in my logbook being a record of my actual experience.

And no one in this thread is advocating anything other than that.

 

[eman1200]

I don’t know what the problem is, I log 121 time all the time.

 

[kayoh190]

I also am interested in my logbook being a record of my actual experience. It seems we agree on that. I don't fly 121, but I do fly Part 135 and log "Acting PIC", "PIC", or "SIC" depending on what function I'm filling so that I can answer accurately to whoever is asking the question for whatever purpose and whichever definition they need.

Yeah sorry, I didn't see your earlier post. I didn't realize you had a column for "Acting PIC", and therefore figured you just lumped everything together. We definitely agree on that.

 

[unsafervguy]

But you don't really know that, do you? Maybe you get hired as an FO at the regionals and intend to fly for the airlines until retirement. Great. But then you get furloughed and try to find a job flying corporate. "Hey, sure, since you were an airline pilot we can hire you directly into the left seat! As long as you have 1000 turbine PIC, that's what our insurance requires. Oh wait, you don't? Well then we can only hire you into the right seat for a lot less money."

Is this example perhaps a bit contrived? Absolutely. Could it happen? Also absolutely. Would it make you wish you logged 61.51 PIC time? Very likely.

My method has always been to log everything possible - you can always weed it out or sort it or manipulate it later if you have the data. But if you don't, you're out of luck.

my guess in your example the insurance company would say, i don't think so. they are looking for the experience of being PIC and making PIC decisions, not just pushing autopilot buttons.

 

[kayoh190]

And no one in this thread is advocating anything other than that.

I didn't see his earlier post - I think we're on the same page.

 

[midlifeflyer]

my guess in your example the insurance company would say, i don't think so. they are looking for the experience of being PIC and making PIC decisions, not just pushing autopilot buttons.

I’ve never seen a definition along those lines in an insurance questionnaire. Or any company-specific definition of logged flight time.

BTW, unless you are an SIC, pushing autopilot buttons is Part 1 PIC time.

 

[RussR]

my guess in your example the insurance company would say, i don't think so. they are looking for the experience of being PIC and making PIC decisions, not just pushing autopilot buttons.

Like @midlifeflyer , I've never seen an insurance form that specified either way, and I've seen a lot of insurance forms. They just ask for "PIC". So as it's not defined, it behooves you to use the 61.51 definition.

 

[unsafervguy]

I’ve never seen a definition along those lines in an insurance questionnaire. Or any company-specific definition of logged flight time.

BTW, unless you are an SIC, pushing autopilot buttons is Part 1 PIC time.

no pushing auto pilot buttons could be a pic under 61.51 part one only deals with designation of pic.

we are discussing an fo at a 121 logging pic when it’s their leg. that time does not meet pic by part 1. Only by 61.51
in a 121 operation part 1 clearly makes the captain pic:
Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

as the company FOM clearly makes the caption final authority and the company makes the determination that the captain is pic. You must meet all three to act as pic under part 1. The only argument that a fo could log pic is under 61.51.

if we want to get into splitting hairs, is anybody sole manipulator of the controls (as required to log pic under 61.51)in a crew situation. notice the regulation does not state flight controls, only controls. Does the pf ever raise or lower the gear? Does the pf ever set flaps?

bottom line is 61.51 was not written to allow a designated sic under 121 and 135 to log pic time. under those regs it’s clearly designated who is pic and who is sic. That’s how you should log it.

 

[Larry in TN]

bottom line is 61.51 was not written to allow a designated sic under 121 and 135 to log pic time.

61.51 is pretty clear as to what it is written to allow. It is right there in 61.51(a).

(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person must document and record the following time in a manner acceptable to the Administrator:​

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of this part.​

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the recent flight experience requirements of this part.​

Once you've obtained the ATP there are no more training and aeronautical experience or recent flight experience requirements which require the logging of additional PIC time. This is reenforced by 61.51(e)(2) which allows an ATP to log PIC time when he is acting as PIC in an operation which requires an ATP.

Sole-manipulator PIC time is allowed to meet the experience requirements for certificates and ratings because the FAA wants that experienced gained while flying the airplane.

Airlines, and other employers, are more interested in the command and decision-making experience gained when a pilot is the one responsible for the flight, not the sole-manipulator PIC time logged under 61.51(e)(1)(i). For that reason, they often specify restrictions on what time can be reported as PIC on their application. Those restrictions almost always require it to be time when the pilot was acting as PIC.

An ATP can, of course, continue to log PIC under 61.51(e)(1)(i) but that time is less useful than it was prior to earning the ATP.

For a professional pilot, the question really is how organize their logbook so that they will have the information they need available for currency requirements, FAA 8710 forms, insurance forms, and applications that they will fill out. As long as their logging complies with 61.51, and provides the data they'll need for these various purposes, that is fine. On a paper logbook, that probably means having multiple PIC columns to fit the different applications but any system that works for the pilot is fine.