10k foot level view

[Unit74]

Just thinking....


With how fast NORSEE and the loosening up of the FAA on safety enhancements, read, STCing all sorts of avionics for GA bugsmashers has gone, I am starting to get timid on committing to a new set of gear. Kinda like buying a cell phone, you know that next year, the even better one is coming out. For instance, buying a stand alone AoA was the hot ticket a few years ago. Well, at least it was in Hawaii. But now all sorts of integrated AoAs are going out. Or how about buying an Aspen or even a G5? In a years time, will Garmin be dropping a dual G5 called the G10 to blow the Aspen E5 off the face of the earth? Or will Aspen drop a 10" glass called the Evolution Super Max that an onwer can install?

Just thinking it is becoming more and more difficult to commit to a piece of hardware today knowing there is something better being dropped next April at SnF that makes you regret today's purchase.... kinda like the dual G5 crew and then Garmin Drops the 7" G3X.


Is it too much, too fast?

 

[asicer]

In a years time, will Garmin be dropping a dual G5 called the G10 to blow the Aspen E5 off the face of the earth?

I would think that the portrait view 7" G3x is pretty much a dual G5.

But to answer your question, if you are talking about certified then I would think the experimental world gives you a bit of a forward view since that's where most of the goodies you cited originated.

 

[kyleb]

Are you buying for your use or for resale?

If for your use, buy what you want/need and don't look back until what you have no longer meets your needs.

Otherwise, you'll just be on the hamster wheel - either forever waiting for the next thing or upgrading, upgrading, upgrading.

 

[Unit74]

My my ride..... Hard to commit knowing the next best thing is juuuust about to be dropped.

 

[NordicDave]

I would think that the portrait view 7" G3x is pretty much a dual G5.

But to answer your question, if you are talking about certified then I would think the experimental world gives you a bit of a forward view since that's where most of the goodies you cited originated.

I agree with the 7" G3X being a single until dual G5 from Garmin's perspective. The cost to install is about the the same as the 10" version. Hard for me anyway to justify the 7" version as the 10" is so much more capable with about the same installation costs.

A "G10" product would be great as it wouldn't require a panel upgrade to fit, just careful trimming the plastic bezel on many planes.

 

[murphey]

Just like the personal computer industry. Next week/montht/year is something new/faster/better.

Keep waiting? You’ll just be further behind the curve and lost [whatever time] using what you choose now.

 

[simtech]

But the year to year changes are not usually life changing. From now to 5 years out then yeah but year to year...meh

 

[Tennis]

Very well put- both sides did well thing are getting better

 

[chemgeek]

It's no different than buying electronics (computers, phones, etc.) or camera gear. Upgrade when the technology has sufficiently advanced compared to your currently owned products that you gain a significant capability upgrade, or if you need to upgrade for compatibility with other installations. For cameras, the upgrade cycle might be 10 years. For computers and phones, it's closer to 3-5 years. My experience with avionics is that significant technology jumps (compared to installed equipment) is on the order of a decade, although that may accelerate with the recent relaxation of avionics installation regulations.

So I would not hesitate to add G5s or the like in an aircraft with vacuum-driven instruments. These devices should be supported for years to come, and will offer very significant capability increases compared to the replaced equipment. Sure, something even better may come along, but probably only incremental, and not justifying replacement for quite a while. The choice of WHICH product may ultimately come down to compatibility with other stuff in the panel.

I'm pulling my vac system later this year to get G5s and GNSS roll steering with my legacy STEC-20 single axis autopilot. I'm not too worried that there will be better products in 5 years: I will still immensely enjoy the safety and usage benefits of the G5s and associated hardware on every flight. Manufacturers are building at least some future-proofing into these electronic instruments by providing software updates. Eventually the hardware will be limiting, but at least the useful lives of this equipment will be extended. Consider that the GNS-430W units are still going strong, with the only real limitations to their usefulness being their limited, legacy memory and processing capacity, and availability of legacy spare parts. Many new products, like the NGT-9000 and the G5 are designed to be able to be updated to correct bugs and add features.

 

[denverpilot]

My my ride..... Hard to commit knowing the next best thing is juuuust about to be dropped.

At some point you have to put the 486 out to pasture and not worry about what’s after the i7. LoL.

 

[Unit74]

At some point you have to put the 486 out to pasture and not worry about what’s after the i7. LoL.

But it’s just that good!

 

[bnt83]

Just thinking....
But now all sorts of integrated AoAs are going out. Or how about buying an Aspen or even a G5? In a years time, will Garmin be dropping a dual G5 called the G10 to blow the Aspen E5 off the face of the earth?

That seems very very unlikely. Aspen has many many more aircraft approved and even approved for several rotorcraft models, the G5 STC doesn't even come close there IMHO.

Also, dropping the G5s is laughable IMHO, they are a key piece in the G3X STC approval and required for GFC 500 installation. In fact, they have yet to freeze the STC G5 interface, just added the OAT interface and adding additional features there.

I seriously doubt there will be an in-between G5 and G3X system.

None of these systems really have anything to do with the NORSEE policy, in fact they are all STC approved and Aspen holds several TSOs.

 

[asicer]

I seriously doubt there will be an in-between G5 and G3X system.

If there were, you'd probably see it on the experimental side first before there's an STC version. But so far there isn't, so looks like there won't be.

 

[Unit74]

To revisit this.....

My shop had a casual convo about this....


I said hey, hows about a E5 and that Vizion. He was like, yea, thats a good set up. But what about a G3x 7" and when Gamrin drops the GFC for your plane, we do that. We can tie in your CIII now, then pull it all after the GFC goes in.

I'm like, Hmmmm.... the G3x does sound like a better platform, but I'd sure like a digital AP now. He was like, yea, that does sound cool and it would work well. But that GFC is going to be a much better AP. How long do you plan to keep this plane. I was like, Hmmm.... maybe 5 years. He was all, well, I think in 5, a buyer will want the GFC/G3x more than an E5 and Vizion, especially with Bendix support history.

So I am thinking that going Garmin is the way to go. What does the herd think?

 

[PaulS]

To revisit this.....

My shop had a casual convo about this....


I said hey, hows about a E5 and that Vizion. He was like, yea, thats a good set up. But what about a G3x 7" and when Gamrin drops the GFC for your plane, we do that. We can tie in your CIII now, then pull it all after the GFC goes in.

I'm like, Hmmmm.... the G3x does sound like a better platform, but I'd sure like a digital AP now. He was like, yea, that does sound cool and it would work well. But that GFC is going to be a much better AP. How long do you plan to keep this plane. I was like, Hmmm.... maybe 5 years. He was all, well, I think in 5, a buyer will want the GFC/G3x more than an E5 and Vizion, especially with Bendix support history.

So I am thinking that going Garmin is the way to go. What does the herd think?

I have experience with the s tec 55x ap and the GFC 700, I suppose not really a fair comparison but the GFC is hands down better IMO, I love it. I think you would be very happy with the Garmin setup for a long time, right up until they stop supporting it anyway. No clue when that would be.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I agree with the 7" G3X being a single until dual G5 from Garmin's perspective.

I disagree with that, dual G5s don’t allow you to get rid of airspeed, altitude and turn coordinator.


Tom

 

[simtech]

Shop probably gets a kick back with Garmin and the installation is more involved which means more money for them. So I wouldn't doubt they are trying to steer you towards the Garmin set up. The main question is will the E5 and TT do what YOU need it to do with how you fly?

 

[NordicDave]

I disagree with that, dual G5s don’t allow you to get rid of airspeed, altitude and turn coordinator.


Tom

Agree. I was trying to say the 7" 3GX should get good consideration if considering 2 G5's. All the capability of the G5 is available and much more. I'm glad you pointed out out the ability remove the other round gages.

I've heard people say they'ed like a dual G5, and I believe Garmin's view that's the 7" 3GX. I was the price of the 7" 3GX was closer to Dual G5's than the 10" 3GX.

-David

 

[denverpilot]

Shop probably gets a kick back with Garmin and the installation is more involved which means more money for them. So I wouldn't doubt they are trying to steer you towards the Garmin set up. The main question is will the E5 and TT do what YOU need it to do with how you fly?

AFAIK “kickbacks” don’t exist with Garmin.

There’s folks here who can tell us if they’re allowed but in face to face conversation with people, they’re as expensive to sell as they are to buy. LOL.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I said hey, hows about a E5 and that Vizion. He was like, yea, thats a good set up. But what about a G3x 7" and when Gamrin drops the GFC for your plane, we do that. We can tie in your CIII now, then pull it all after the GFC goes in.

I'm like, Hmmmm.... the G3x does sound like a better platform, but I'd sure like a digital AP now. He was like, yea, that does sound cool and it would work well. But that GFC is going to be a much better AP. How long do you plan to keep this plane. I was like, Hmmm.... maybe 5 years. He was all, well, I think in 5, a buyer will want the GFC/G3x more than an E5 and Vizion, especially with Bendix support history.

So I am thinking that going Garmin is the way to go. What does the herd think?

Having tried to sell a plane *without* Garmin... He's right.

I think that if you do it piecemeal, though, you'll need to keep the AI for the CIII until you get the new autopilot. In either case, you will save money on the install by doing it all at once.

Also, WRT the OP, I think Garmin realizes that if they kill or supersede products in the same market niche too quickly, that people will be wary of buying anything. I would expect that we'll see a continuation of what we've seen with the GNS, G1000, etc: Products getting sold for 12-15 years with a mid-stream refresh at half that (a la the 430W, NXi, etc), and some level of upgradeability (NXi, TXi) as the underlying hardware is improved.

To me, the 7" TXi is not anything like a replacement for dual G5s, it's the next level up. Bigger screen, more expensive.

 

[simtech]

AFAIK “kickbacks” don’t exist with Garmin.

There’s folks here who can tell us if they’re allowed but in face to face conversation with people, they’re as expensive to sell as they are to buy. LOL.

Those Garmin dealers will never tell! Haha but does seem fishy a shop that sells other brands almost always push you to Garmin. Why is that...mhmm...$$$$$$ it's hard to trust anything anymore because it's all about the coin from that small non profit to the fortune 500 companies. But that's for another thread. hahaha

 

[Unit74]

FYI.... I talked to my shop today. We are all in on Garmin after Trutrak.... Er BK...... basically cut themselves off from customers yesterday.


7”G3X and GFC 100%

 

[denverpilot]

Those Garmin dealers will never tell! Haha but does seem fishy a shop that sells other brands almost always push you to Garmin. Why is that...mhmm...$$$$$$ it's hard to trust anything anymore because it's all about the coin from that small non profit to the fortune 500 companies. But that's for another thread. hahaha

My Garmin dealer says it’s mostly about the crap just working correctly. Return visits caused by low quality crap aren’t what he pushes people toward, basically. Pilots don’t like dropping a new car worth of coin on three radio boxes and having constant problems and glitches.

That said there are pilots who show up knowing what they want, they did the research, they know the problems being reported, and that’s what they want installed. He won’t argue at any significant length with them.

His profit margin is whatever he sets it at for each product. I wouldn’t be too surprised if something is particularly prone to return visits to screw with it, he raises the price. You reeeeealy want this one? Fine. LOL.

I don’t see any shops getting rich off of avionics work unless they’re working on jets or government contracts. Low end GA box swapping and dealing with aircraft with wiring harnesses from the 70s still showing up at the front of the hangar?

Labor of love. It’s like restoring British sports car electrical systems at this point.

 

[Lynn Dixon]

FYI.... I talked to my shop today. We are all in on Garmin after Trutrak.... Er BK...... basically cut themselves off from customers yesterday.


7”G3X and GFC 100%

So now you just have to hope and pray that the GFC gets approved for your airframe. Otherwise you spent a bunch of money on something that hasn't came to fruition yet, and are in a walled garden.

 

[Unit74]

So now you just have to hope and pray that the GFC gets approved for your airframe. Otherwise you spent a bunch of money on something that hasn't came to fruition yet, and are in a walled garden.

Better than being a BK customer......

 

[Lynn Dixon]

I talked to BendixKing this weekend at the Tullahoma AOPA fly-in. They were super excited to have TruTrak, and they mentioned that TruTrak is currently moving into a new larger building and they were in the middle of re-working their social media for TruTrak as they have some new marketing thats coming up. There is a lot of cool things they have on the horizon, and the Vizion is slated to get some really good upgrades via software as well as hardware add-ons (electric trim!!!!!!). BendixKing is WELL aware of what TruTrak opens for them, and they are wanting to shift their company to target guys like us (the GA guys flying old birds). Their partnership with Avidyne and others is going to allow them to have a much better inter-operability with all sorts of vendors.

Maybe I'm an odd duck, but I really think Andrew and BendixKing are going to do some awesome things together. Andrew gets (getting them now) bigger facilities, more cash to back him, and better access to markets and legal teams to get stuff done quicker at the FAA to avoid all the back and forth they had to do with this latest firmware. The BK guys at the booth seemed more excited about this venture than anything else they'd seen in a long time.

Meanwhile... Garmin was NO WHERE to be found at the Tullahoma event. Save for Carpenter avionics showcasing a couple units. I didn't see the first Garmin rep there at all. Dynon was there. EI was there, Aspen was there, Avidyne was there, BK was there, etc.

 

[Unit74]

Enjoy your set up Lynn. But BK ****ed on GA and now wants to be friends? Naw..... They can keep stepping.

 

[ISU_Radar]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the G3X in either the 10" or 7" size require panel modifications? If that is the case, then that adds more cost and complexity for the aircraft like the PA-28's where the panel is a structural member. That is why in my opinion that 7" G3X is not in the same league as either the G5's or Aspen lines, it is the next step up.

 

[Unit74]

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the G3X in either the 10" or 7" size require panel modifications? If that is the case, then that adds more cost and complexity for the aircraft like the PA-28's where the panel is a structural member. That is why in my opinion that 7" G3X is not in the same league as either the G5's or Aspen lines, it is the next step up.

Yes, it requires a new panel. I agree it is better than the Aspen and the dual G5s, but a far cry from the TXi, Skyview et al. I would also argue that most pilots not getting paid to fly also don't need much more than the G5 or E5 offer. I have struggled with this issue for the past year. I wanted the E5/Vizion like it was my first real girlfriend, but I also refuse I say; REFUSE. To be a BK customer.

 

[ISU_Radar]

Yes, it requires a new panel. I agree it is better than the Aspen and the dual G5s, but a far cry from the TXi, Skyview et al. I would also argue that most pilots not getting paid to fly also don't need much more than the G5 or E5 offer. I have struggled with this issue for the past year. I wanted the E5/Vizion like it was my first real girlfriend, but I also refuse I say; REFUSE. To be a BK customer.

I too am struggling on what to do with my own panel. Being a tech geek, I would love for the latest and greatest full EFIS panel, but don't want to overspend the airframe either. With some of the newer updates, the G5's looks appealing except for the fact that it seems that Garmin is becoming more and more of a closed ecosystem, where as everyone else seems to be going towards a more open, standards based integrations with other manufactures.

 

[Unit74]

I too am struggling on what to do with my own panel. Being a tech geek, I would love for the latest and greatest full EFIS panel, but don't want to overspend the airframe either. With some of the newer updates, the G5's looks appealing except for the fact that it seems that Garmin is becoming more and more of a closed ecosystem, where as everyone else seems to be going towards a more open, standards based integrations with other manufactures.

Agreed. Having an all Garmin stack sans audio panel, it makes it hard NOT to drink the kool-aid though.