100LL Debacle

[mcdewey]

My theory is that with all that lead in boomer’s blood is that we are impervious to radiation. Us and cockroaches.

 

[Daleandee]

My theory is that with all that lead in boomer’s blood is that we are impervious to radiation. Us and cockroaches.

The other upside is that my tin foil hat isn't really needed... it's just for show!

 

[EdFred]

The other upside is that my tin foil hat isn't really needed... it's just for show!

I'll take letitsnow for =400, Trebek!

 

[Kinder]

A very significant part of the US GDP, and a lack of regard for human safety.

Safety is overrated

 

[PaulMillner]

Yeah, if lead is so bad for children, how some any of us older people are alive and not drooling on ourselves.

We had leaded gas in planes. And airlines burned avgas. We had leaded gas in our cars. We had lead in the paint on our toys. We had lead in the paint on and in our houses. Some of use played with lead toys (not sure where it came from, but we had some molds to cast leads WWI military toys). When we worked on cars, even as kids, we cleaned our hands in leaded gasoline.

On could make the case the proliferation of morons came about after taking most of the lead out of things.

You misstated my argument... maybe another 5 IQ points would be helpful? ;-]

Paul

 

[sliceofstrife]

You might consider that the current administration, Congress, and the EPA won't be too concerned about a solution considering they claim there is supposedly no safe level of lead exposure for children.

I'm not sure how generations of kids managed to survive lead pipes, lead paint, and leaded gas without horrendous and calamitous death rates, but there it is.

They didn't... They survived, with lead poisoning. It's not that complicated. Hundred million people or so are slightly dumber because of it. Looks like a bunch of people in this thread too. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2118631119

 

[sliceofstrife]

Yeah, if lead is so bad for children, how some any of us older people are alive and not drooling on ourselves.

We had leaded gas in planes. And airlines burned avgas. We had leaded gas in our cars. We had lead in the paint on our toys. We had lead in the paint on and in our houses. Some of use played with lead toys (not sure where it came from, but we had some molds to cast leads WWI military toys). When we worked on cars, even as kids, we cleaned our hands in leaded gasoline.

On could make the case the proliferation of morons came about after taking most of the lead out of things.

if you did all those things, it's possible that you're dumber than if you hadn't.

 

[EdFred]

They didn't... They survived, with lead poisoning. It's not that complicated. Hundred million people or so are slightly dumber because of it. Looks like a bunch of people in this thread too. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2118631119

You're gonna quote a piece that shows an accumulated loss of IQ points as shock value? GTFO.

if you did all those things, it's possible that you're dumber than if you hadn't.

Possible. But not definitive. Could be a whole slew of other contributing factors.

 

[Bob Noel]

They didn't... They survived, with lead poisoning. It's not that complicated. Hundred million people or so are slightly dumber because of it. Looks like a bunch of people in this thread too. https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2118631119

not directed at you sliceofstrife

I'm reminded of this quote (and similar ones)

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

 

[Bob Noel]

Oh, and let's not forget that IQ is a normalized measure.

 

[Half Fast]

Oh, and let's not forget that IQ is a normalized measure.

Yep.

And there are many different IQ tests, and they will give slightly different results.

Read up on the “Flynn Effect” and you’ll see evidence of an upward trend in IQ, but you’ll also learn it’s a very complex subject. Drawing firm conclusions about the effects of lead on IQ is silly, especially when there are so many other factors in play, such as diet, health care, infant survival rates, pollutants, lifespan, etc.

 

[Pinecone]

Here's an unpopular opinion, but a real one. Small GA is going to die off. Not enough new people, not enough resources. Part 135 will remain. Uber rich will remain. The rest will die, pistons, small town airports. I love the industry, but there's no saving it, only prolonging the agony (and complaining about everyone)

I have seen that prediction over the years.

GA is still here.

My local airport is expanding. Plenty of students. Plenty of activity.

 

[Pinecone]

In my work experience the safety/environmental/health people really aren’t smart. The coursework in university is shallow and not that rigorous. Most of them are grandstanding alarmists that add little to society. Initially they had a benefit for correcting some of the gross miscarriages of environmental justice but now they’re just hanging on, looking for relevancy.

Overall I disagree with your characterization. Especially when you lump occupation health and safety with environmentalists. While there is some overlap, environmentalists tend to match your description better.

But to be clear, I have been a professional in occupational health and safety for almost 40 years now. And I have never been an alarmist about things. And I started in the height of the asbestos panic.

I do agree that those coming out of college are ill prepared for the profession. When I started, there were no degrees in Industrial Hygiene (occupational health side). Everyone had a hard science degree (chemistry, bio, physiology, engineering, etc), then learned the profession by doing.

 

[Pinecone]

Oh, and let's not forget that IQ is a normalized measure.

But also remember, because of that, half the population is below average in IQ.

 

[Pinecone]

An interesting tidbit is that lead is stored in the body and will slowly, very slowly, leach out of the body (or whatever the correct term is).

I'm not aware of any research that definitely shows "no safe level of lead exposure" is true. And probably nobody wants to prove it is false.

Yes. In the old days, lead miners would work until the lead levels started to cause physical symptoms, then they would walk around in a very hot room to make the process of lead leaving the body faster.

EPA has always used a model that the only safe level is 0 exposure. And for airborne levels of carcinogens, they use a limit based on 1 excess cancer death per 1 million people exposed for 70 years, 24-hours a day, 7-days a week.

But look at things like zinc. Yes, high level of zinc are hazardous. But remove all the zinc from your body, and you will be very ill. Look at the contents of multi-vitamins, they contain zinc. But the EPA would want a 0 level of exposure in the environment.

 

[Pinecone]

That's true of almost everything. Look at safety systems in cars and trucks today, compared to the 1960s and 1970s. Same thing for workplace safety, mine safety, lawn mowers... the state of the art advances over time as we learn and develop new technology. People a hundred years from now will look back at us and wonder how any of us survived.

Just watch the YouTube videos from dash cams. Not many years ago, those would ALL be fatalities. Not the person walks away and is driving the next day.

 

[JOhnH]

Yeah, if lead is so bad for children, how some any of us older people are alive and not drooling on ourselves.

We had leaded gas in planes. And airlines burned avgas. We had leaded gas in our cars. We had lead in the paint on our toys. We had lead in the paint on and in our houses. Some of use played with lead toys (not sure where it came from, but we had some molds to cast leads WWI military toys). When we worked on cars, even as kids, we cleaned our hands in leaded gasoline.

On could make the case the proliferation of morons came about after taking most of the lead out of things.

When I was a kid in the late '50s and early '60s, we went fishing with a cane pole, and (lead) split shot sinkers. We clamped the split shot to the line with out teeth.

I'm not saying it had no effect on me. Perhaps if I hadn't absorbed all of that lead I would have been a freakin genius.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I'm not saying it had no effect on me. Perhaps if I hadn't absorbed all of that lead I would have been a freakin genius.

Well, It may have brought you up to average anyway.

Sorry it was too easy. Only joking .

 

[Baked Potato]

As usual, correlation is not proof of causation.

Cheers

Sure, but hasn't this correlation been shown in different regions of the world, at different times, as countries phased out leaded auto fuel at different times?

 

[Morgan3820]

I do agree that those coming out of college are ill prepared for the profession. .

Then we are in agreement because what I see don’t even know what an LD50 is or means or how to interpret. They don’t have the most basic understanding of physics or chemistry.

 

[Daleandee]

Then we are in agreement because what I see don’t even know what an LD50 is or means or how to interpret. They don’t have the most basic understanding of physics or chemistry.

I recall speaking to an assistant for an eye doc that told me chemicals that get into the eyes cannot enter the blood stream.

On another occasion a nurse working with an endocrinologist insisted that corn is not a carbohydrate.

I guess it's easy to miss a class or two and not get all the information but when it's something that's supposed to be in your wheelhouse ...

 

[sliceofstrife]

You're gonna quote a piece that shows an accumulated loss of IQ points as shock value? GTFO.



Possible. But not definitive. Could be a whole slew of other contributing factors.

I know, math is hard.. but you'll just have to trust the rest of us that passed statistics.

 

[bnt83]

https://www.epa.gov/superfund/lead-superfund-sites

 

[EdFred]

I know, math is hard.. but you'll just have to trust the rest of us that passed statistics.

Difficult for you maybe. I fortunately know how to do basic math, and when you divide a big number by another big number you get a small number, in this case a very small number.

You're probably also a guy that doesn't understand that CEO pay when distributed across thousands of employees results in raises of less than a hundred bucks a year.

But hey, keep posting "scary numbers" or better yet, make a "lead ribbon" and put it on your profile.

 

[bnt83]

How much lead is emitted by volcanoes?

 

[bnt83]

Yes. In the old days, lead miners would work until the lead levels started to cause physical symptoms, then they would walk around in a very hot room to make the process of lead leaving the body faster.

EPA has always used a model that the only safe level is 0 exposure. And for airborne levels of carcinogens, they use a limit based on 1 excess cancer death per 1 million people exposed for 70 years, 24-hours a day, 7-days a week.

But look at things like zinc. Yes, high level of zinc are hazardous. But remove all the zinc from your body, and you will be very ill. Look at the contents of multi-vitamins, they contain zinc. But the EPA would want a 0 level of exposure in the environment.

 

[EdFred]

How much lead is emitted by volcanoes?

Oooh, let me do this, and make it sound scary!

IN the past 50 years a volcano could emit between 400,000,000,000 and 1,460,000,000,000 milligrams of lead!!

(Mt Etna kicks out about 80kg of lead/day)

 

[JOhnH]

Then we are in agreement because what I see don’t even know what an LD50 is or means or how to interpret. They don’t have the most basic understanding of physics or chemistry.

I don't think the lack of understanding of (STEM) has anything to do with lead. I think it has more to do with the philosophy of teaching to the lowest common denominator. I read recently that some high school was eliminating advanced classes because it made some of the other students feel inferior.

 

[EdFred]

I don't think the lack of understanding of (STEM) has anything to do with lead. I think it has more to do with the philosophy of teaching to the lowest common denominator. I read recently that some high school was eliminating advanced classes because it made some of the other students feel inferior.

The local school district here eliminated the valedictorian and salutatorian in favor of "participation trophies" so kids didn't feel bad.

 

[bnt83]

Oooh, let me do this, and make it sound scary!

IN the past 50 years a volcano could emit between 400,000,000,000 and 1,460,000,000,000 milligrams of lead!!

(Mt Etna kicks out about 80kg of lead/day)

Holy Fing crap, think of how many micrograms that is.

 

[172andyou]

I find the "no safe level of lead exposure" standard curious, considering that I suspect decades ago when lead was ubiquitously present in many products and processes there was a detectable level of the substance in a good portion of the US population. Were there generations produced with suppressed IQs but the effects prevented anyone from realizing it, or is the standard a bit ridiculous?

I mean, we do have a generation whose IQ has been suppressed to the point of not understanding the risks associated with lead despite the fact that even low level exposure being harmful is almost 50 year old science with no credible contradictory evidence.

 

[EdFred]

I mean, we do have a generation whose IQ has been suppressed to the point of not understanding the risks associated with lead despite the fact that even low level exposure being harmful is almost 50 year old science with no credible contradictory evidence.

And people with even lower IQs completely missing the point!

 

[172andyou]

And people with even lower IQs completely missing the point!

Yup, exactly. Some people are so diminished that they think themselves to be better scientists than the scientists.

 

[PaulMillner]

Yes. In the old days, lead miners would work until the lead levels started to cause physical symptoms

The difference with children is that lead adversely affects connections between neurons in the brain, and hence permanently reduces intelligence. No amount of walking it off will reverse that permanent brain damage. The type and permanence of lead impact is very different for children and adults.

Paul

 

[EdFred]

Yup, exactly. Some people are so diminished that they think themselves to be better scientists than the scientists.

And those that make incorrect assumptions about what the point is. But hey, can't save em all.

 

[Racerx]

I don't think the lack of understanding of (STEM) has anything to do with lead. I think it has more to do with the philosophy of teaching to the lowest common denominator. I read recently that some high school was eliminating advanced classes because it made some of the other students feel inferior.

We got rid of the presidential fitness award in gym class for this very reason. I got it 6 times, was the only one in my class to do it and was damn proud of my accomplishment

 

[172andyou]

And those that make incorrect assumptions about what the point is. But hey, can't save em all.

Yup. This thread has been riddled with assumption that are not scientifically grounded.

 

[Bob Noel]

I know, math is hard.. but you'll just have to trust the rest of us that passed statistics.

I passed statistics and have a BS in Applied Math. Despite this handicap, I know the difference between statistical correlation and causation.

 

[Baked Potato]

But it's pretty striking that this correlation can be seen across many geographical areas, with the same change in crime rates, offset by 18-20 years.

"This study found a robust relationship between lead in air and subsequent rates of aggressive crime at suburb, state and national population levels using multiple analytic methods and data sources."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4756504/#!po=1.06383

 

[sliceofstrife]

Difficult for you maybe. I fortunately know how to do basic math, and when you divide a big number by another big number you get a small number, in this case a very small number.

You're probably also a guy that doesn't understand that CEO pay when distributed across thousands of employees results in raises of less than a hundred bucks a year.

But hey, keep posting "scary numbers" or better yet, make a "lead ribbon" and put it on your profile.

ok boomer.

so you're saying lead poisoning isn't a thing? sounds like a comment from someone with lead poisoning.