100LL cost

So if this is such the obvious answer, why isn't anyone going that route? Are you talking straight Mogas, or something else? I've read here before that the largest consumers of 100LL are piston air carriers or freight carriers, and something about those engines can't be run on mogas?

The use of piston engines by passenger and freight carriers has declined a lot over the last decade. Take a look at FlightAware, you'll see maybe 15 - 20 Cessna 402s and a slightly smaller number of Navajos most days. Almost all of the 402s are Cape Air. Other than that, almost everything else is likely owner flown, other than a few 400 series Cessna twins.

Cape Air will be retiring its 402s over the next few years in favor of Tecnam's P2012, which is powered by one of Lycoming's iE2 engines, which may offer a way to get some fuel flexibility into the fleet.

Is 91/96 basically 100LL without the lead or is it something entirely different?

Why not mix the TEL in at the retail endpoint for only those that need it?

Tetraethyl lead is nasty toxic stuff, and has to be mixed into the gasoline in small, precise quantities. I wouldn't think it's a good candidate for distribution over a wide area.
 
Having spent a decent part of my early career on this exact question, the realities get complex. While one can argue that the solution itself is simple (and water injection does work, very well), right now it's just hard to coordinate.

Yes and no. That's why you have so much technological advancement during times of large wars. All of a sudden the obstacles disappear in a effort to accomplish the goal. Also once you get outside highly regulated industries, things can happen alot faster. The question being, to my point, do we need so much regulation?

The FAA has been going for the mandate of the drop-in replacement for 100LL, which I personally agree with. Of course, ~10 years later, we don't have a solution yet that actually works.

10 years and over $26 million later, and a solution that will proprietary and quite likely raise prices even higher.

It's important not to look at the solution and instead look at the problem trying to be solved. That is, EPA mandates to reduce lead in the environment. Today, now, we could remove the lead from 100LL and end up with 94UL. According to Swift, that would be a drop in replacement for 65% of the current AvGas piston fleet... another 10% or so with a paper STC only. That's 75% of the fleet.

Would that be good enough of a reduction for the EPA? Now by going with 94UL (or 91/96 UL) all of a sudden we start to get some convergence with the autofuel market being we can now share the same pipelines and tankers That lowers costs.... not raising costs like the FAA's boutique fuel solution does.


The other option would be the FAA doing a mandate like ADS-B, and say "Sorry guys, no more 100LL. Going to [insert unleaded fuel here]. You have [insert number of years] to convert your fleet." This would be feasible so long as you could keep the vapor pressure correct, as that causes issues in some experimentals running mogas and would definitely cause issues in some certified as well. Water injection would work, but the reason that $500 injection system costs $14k is certification.

Bingo. And let me remind you the FAA offered a $500 rebate for going to ADS-B (total cost $5.1 million). And being only 25% of the fleet is going to need water injection/other means, the FAA could offer a even higher level of rebate and still come out ahead... with a better solution. Further, the $14K is only "certification" in the context of recovering the investment as well as the lack of any competition. If all of a sudden a market is created, with competitors, you'll find the market steps quite nicely. Where did we start with the cost of ADS-B transponders? And where are we now? From my view with have sub $2000 solutions that meet the ADS-B mandate and the deadline is not even here.

Or alternately perhaps it could be done at the pump as someone else suggested, by adding octane enhancers... which all ethanol is anyways and it's added at the distributor. MBTE got a bad name from leaching out of ground tanks but perhaps with some of those R&D dollars from the FAA a means to add it at the pump could be devised?

That being said, I hear what you are saying and the bloated Washington bureaucracy will fight any free market solution but I strongly believe convergence, as much as possible, should be our buzzword. We are so close with 94UL.
 
It's important not to look at the solution and instead look at the problem trying to be solved. That is, EPA mandates to reduce lead in the environment. Today, now, we could remove the lead from 100LL and end up with 94UL. According to Swift, that would be a drop in replacement for 65% of the current AvGas piston fleet... another 10% or so with a paper STC only. That's 75% of the fleet.

Would that be good enough of a reduction for the EPA? Now by going with 94UL (or 91/96 UL) all of a sudden we start to get some convergence with the autofuel market being we can now share the same pipelines and tankers That lowers costs.... not raising costs like the FAA's boutique fuel solution does.

We need to clarify that a bit. 65%-75% of the fleet from a tail number perspective, not from a consumption perspective. The whole reason 80/87 went away was because there wasn't enough consumption for FBOs to justify having two pumps. As it is, you see some airports (mostly smaller ones trying to drive up traffic to their field) that stock MoGas, but very few. Now, if you could get 94 approved as a drop in for that 65% of the fleet, you would certainly see some more airports be willing to add that 94 pump, but the number on the whole I think would still be pretty small. Given that, would the EPA see the reduction in lead they're looking for? That's a question, and I think the answer is probably no.

Anyway, "Not my job anymore." ;)
 
Ted, I'm not advocating 2 pumps. In the context I used it, the 25% that couldn't use 94UL, was based on retrofit to be able to use it, not consumption. In fact that higher consumption is actually a cost motivation to use it (retrofit for it).

But this isn't a lobbyist or monopoly centric solution, hence my self accusation my thoughts are a pipe dream just like PNC was.
 
Ted, I'm not advocating 2 pumps. In the context I used it, the 25% that couldn't use 94UL, was based on retrofit to be able to use it, not consumption. In fact that higher consumption is actually a cost motivation to use it (retrofit for it).

But this isn't a lobbyist or monopoly centric solution, hence my self accusation my thoughts are a pipe dream just like PNC was.

Gotcha, I missed that aspect. And certainly that would reduce the number of models that would need it significantly.

Personally as a consumer of 100LL, it was never something I was worried about. Maybe I should be, but 10 years have passed and we're still here burning it.
 
I never quite understand some of the drastic swings over small geographies. Passed through the NYC area recently and studied fuel prices.

Ross Aviation at HPN (hardly a major hub and lots of light GA 100 LL burning activity) was charging $7.27 when literally a stones throw away you can pick up 100LL at DXR for $4.90 (both prices for full service). On previous trips years ago I don’t remember the delta being anything like that.

Are such FBOs just inflating prices hoping to keep AvGas burners away so they can focus on jets? It’s almost like they’re posting a sign saying “I mean if you really wanna come here fine, but seriously best you just stay away!”

I understand when someone like JFK has high prices for 100LL so you don’t just pop by for a quick fuel up, but HPN is hardly a major hub with a lot of pistons still banging around.

The reason is the old adage "because they can." Signature is actually the cheapest cost for 100LL at HPN, at $6.67 a gallon, which is sort of what you see at a number of busier Class C airports and some lower end Class Bs. I think a lot of these FBOs get away with the pricing not necessarily to chase away pistons, but because they know piston drivers often want the services available at the busier GA hubs. While us fans of Guido Warnecke may have heard of Danbury, your less avgeeky GA driver will be more likely to look at the big jet terminal and think that is the place to go. Also, I bet that some of these FBOs at busy GA fields that have painful 100LL pricing are providing hefty discounts for local/club/volume buyers.
 
We've got a lot of smart people here, we just need to put our heads together and come up with a battery that's good enough to replace 100LL. Simple.
Still a way off, technically. Energy density for gasoline is still 100X that of the most advanced battery technology. The best candidate is probably a lithium-oxygen system, but it's not there yet. "Refueling" will be slower for batteries than for hydrocarbon fuels.
 
I just wish there was a decent aerodiesel available.
 
Back
Top