100LL/Auto/and alcohol

[Tom-D]

Simple question, how does the addition of alcohol to fuel effect carb ice? after all don't we use alcohol to deice aircraft?

The reason for the question.... I'm now looking at the possibility of running a Ellison fuel injection and auto fuel.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Alcohol 385 BTU/LB latent heat of vaporization, 6.073 LB/gallon, 76,100 BTU/gallon from burning.
Gasoline 900 BTU/LB latent heat of vaporization, 6.584 LB/gallon, 114,100 BTU/gallon from burning.

10% alcohol by volume. The latent heat of vaporization of alcohol is about 1/3 less than that of gasoline.

You have to flow a little more E10 to the energy content of E0, but there will be a little LESS heat sucked out of the air coming in through the carburetor.

In short, less likely to cause carburetor ice.

Wait, you said fuel injection. No carburetor, no carb ice.

 

[denverpilot]

I believe the commonly mentioned problem with alcohol (ethanol) is lower vapor pressure at altitude Tom, leading to the possibility of vapor lock. That's what all the brouhaha is in the MoGas STCs for certified stuff.

But you probably already knew that.

I haven't really ever seen any complaints about icing associated with alcohol in fuel.

Interesting question though.

 

[Tom-D]

Wait, you said fuel injection. No carburetor, no carb ice.

quote from :
http://www.rotecradialengines.com/TBI/TBI.htm

11. Q. What about carb heat I hear that slide throttle bodies don’t ever suffer from ice?
A. Nonsense, any carburetor or throttle body that restricts manifold pressure to control power output, will by nature greatly reduce the local temperature at the throttle opening. A traditional exhaust heated carb heat system is mandatory.

 

[N801BH]

quote from :
http://www.rotecradialengines.com/TBI/TBI.htm

11. Q. What about carb heat I hear that slide throttle bodies don’t ever suffer from ice?
A. Nonsense, any carburetor or throttle body that restricts manifold pressure to control power output, will by nature greatly reduce the local temperature at the throttle opening. A traditional exhaust heated carb heat system is mandatory.

Throttle bodies can and do ice up....

Port injection does not....

Doesn't the alcohol attack composite fuel tanks???

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Doesn't the alcohol attack composite fuel tanks???

Depends on the resin used in the composite. Some are E-10 safe, some are not.

 

[flyingriki]

Simple question, hincompatible.w does the addition of alcohol to fuel effect carb ice? after all don't we use alcohol to deice aircraft?

The reason for the question.... I'm now looking at the possibility of running a Ellison fuel injection and auto fuel.

Find out what epoxy was used for your fuel tanks. Some are incompatible as Geoff said. Would also suggest the canard forums for specific questions. Most of what you'll get here is often speculative. Some very knowledgeable folk on yahoo canard aviators. Good stuff in the attachment from Gary Hunter, the glu guru. Knows his stuff.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Why not buy E0?

 

[N801BH]

EO is not that available everywhere.... And , if the plane has the wrong type of resin in the tanks and the EO is mislabeled and it actually had alcohol in it.. And you put some in the plane..... You are screwed...

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

EO is not that available everywhere.... And , if the plane has the wrong type of resin in the tanks and the EO is mislabeled and it actually had alcohol in it.. And you put some in the plane..... You are screwed...

I realize that, I wanted to hear it from him. Why in HIS area does he not buy E0.
Testing E0 to make sure there it has no alcohol in it is easy. Anyone self fueling from pump gas should be doing this with every load. (Put a little water in a container, maybe 5ml of water in a centrifuge tube, and then add the gasoline sample to it. Shake the sample & let settle. If the amount of "water" goes up then there is alcohol in the gas. The larger "water" than what you started with is actually a water/alcohol mixture. The alcohol love water more than it loves gasoline.)

 

[Tom-D]

I know about the resin problems, that wasn't the question.

 

[Tom-D]

Throttle bodies can and do ice up....

Port injection does not.... True, TBI is just a different type carb.

Doesn't the alcohol attack composite fuel tanks???

That is dependent upon the type resin used, I've built several boat tanks using vinalester resin, fuel of any nature does not effect it. but most canards are build using epoxy, and yes it will react to many chemicals.
tanks can be retro lined with vinalester pretty easy.

 

[Tom-D]

I believe the commonly mentioned problem with alcohol (ethanol) is lower vapor pressure at altitude Tom, leading to the possibility of vapor lock. That's what all the brouhaha is in the MoGas STCs for certified stuff.

But you probably already knew that.

I haven't really ever seen any complaints about icing associated with alcohol in fuel.

Interesting question though.

This is why Canada will not allow it to be used above 5k feet

 

[flyingriki]

I know you seem to feel you have the composite knowhow to make modifications to your tanks but we've seen a few people that had all the answers hurt themselves and, frankly, we don't need the publicity of another one. I posted your "solution" on the forum you should be, but refuse to, frequent with these issues. Here's some input from a former Scaled Engineer:
- if you've used appropriate epoxies to line your tanks (EZ10/87) then you don't need anything else.

But if you DO want some sort of tank lining, neither polyester nor vinylester are the right choices to apply over the epoxy structure - adhesion is poor to marginal - terrible for polyester, and just bad for vinylester. Use some sort of polysulfide fuel sealant, as has been discussed previously - there are a few choices, under various brand names, such as Pro-Seal, whos PR-1422 or P/S 890 Class A sealants would be appropriate. NOT the Class B, which are not brushable.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/proseala2.php

is one choice.
I'm not going to waste any more time trying to point out that these are very different airframes, not boats and not looking in the right places for your learning curve is going to produce something we'll simply warn potential buyers about. Sayonara.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Simple question, how does the addition of alcohol to fuel effect carb ice? after all don't we use alcohol to deice aircraft?

The reason for the question.... I'm now looking at the possibility of running a Ellison fuel injection and auto fuel.

We use propylene glycol to device aircraft, or other glycols for weeping wings. Although glycols contain alcohol functional groups, I suspect you meant ethanol.

Will alcohols affect the adiabatic cooling of the air, which causes some icing? How about evaporative cooling?

 

[PaulMillner]

problem with alcohol (ethanol) is lower vapor pressure at altitude Tom, leading to the possibility of vapor lock.

That's a bit scrambled. First, the vapor pressure doesn't change with altitude... it's relatively a constant. However, as the altitude increases, the vapor pressure of a fuel becomes a greater proportion of the ambient pressure, and so bubble formation and blockage of fuel flow paths is more likely. And, ethanol has a higher vapor pressure than avgas, and is also a vapor pressure antagonist: adding ethanol to gasoline results in higher (bad) vapor pressure than either of the constituents before the blending.

So... one of the downsides to using mogas is that the vapor pressure can well be higher than avgas' 7 pound vapor pressure (mogas vapor pressure can be 12 pounds or more in winter months). Ethanol does disproportionately increase fuel vapor pressure, but the total gasoline/gasohol mix still meets whatever the seasonal mogas vapor pressure specification might be.

Paul

 

[Tom-D]

I know you seem to feel you have the composite knowhow to make modifications to your tanks but we've seen a few people that had all the answers hurt themselves and, frankly, we don't need the publicity of another one. I posted your "solution" on the forum you should be, but refuse to, frequent with these issues. Here's some input from a former Scaled Engineer:
- if you've used appropriate epoxies to line your tanks (EZ10/87) then you don't need anything else.

But if you DO want some sort of tank lining, neither polyester nor vinylester are the right choices to apply over the epoxy structure - adhesion is poor to marginal - terrible for polyester, and just bad for vinylester. Use some sort of polysulfide fuel sealant, as has been discussed previously - there are a few choices, under various brand names, such as Pro-Seal, whos PR-1422 or P/S 890 Class A sealants would be appropriate. NOT the Class B, which are not brushable.

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/proseala2.php

is one choice.
I'm not going to waste any more time trying to point out that these are very different airframes, not boats and not looking in the right places for your learning curve is going to produce something we'll simply warn potential buyers about. Sayonara.

I understand boats don't fly. but they do use auto fuel. I ask a simple question and now I'm building a bomb. get real.

 

[Dan Thomas]

We use propylene glycol to device aircraft, or other glycols for weeping wings. Although glycols contain alcohol functional groups, I suspect you meant ethanol.

Some folks use isopropyl alcohol (C3H8O) for deicing. The acohol in fuel is ethanol (C2H6O). Different stuff.

 

[Tom-D]

I understand boats don't fly. but they do use auto fuel. I ask a simple question and now I'm building a bomb. get real.

 

[Tom-D]

As always the thread creep has rendered this thread useless, Admin... please close it. before flyingriki makes another assumption about what I'm doing and posts it else where.

 

[timwinters]

That is dependent upon the type resin used, I've built several boat tanks using vinalester resin...<snip>...tanks can be retro lined with vinalester pretty easy.

Here's some input from a former Scaled Engineer: <snip>
- if you've used appropriate epoxies to line your tanks (EZ10/87) then you don't need anything else.

But if you DO want some sort of tank lining, neither polyester nor vinylester are the right choices to apply over the epoxy structure - adhesion is poor to marginal - terrible for polyester, and just bad for vinylester. Use some sort of polysulfide fuel sealant, as has been discussed previously - there are a few choices, under various brand names, such as Pro-Seal, whos PR-1422 or P/S 890 Class A sealants would be appropriate. NOT the Class B, which are not brushable.

As always the thread creep has rendered this thread useless, Admin... please close it. before flyingriki makes another assumption about what I'm doing and posts it else where.

Awww...Tom got his ego bruised. Heaven forbid someone would actually take the time to research his issue, show him that the product he plans to use isn't suitable for the purpose, and give him good alternatives that will keep him from killing himself or others.

It's really terrible that someone would care enough to go through all that work. Such a horrible place this is.

Your ego will heal, Tom (maybe), but your body migt not if you do something dumb even though you've been warned by experts in the field.

I honestly wonder sometimes why anyone here ever tries to help you.

 

[frfly172]

Many states sell non e auto gas at the pump,for about 50 cents more a gallon ,than regular with E. Have been using it in my boat with great results.

 

[timwinters]

Many states sell non e auto gas at the pump,for about 50 cents more a gallon ,than regular with E. Have been using it in my boat with great results.

Some states & areas more than others. This website does a pretty good job of keeping track of where it can be purchased: http://www.pure-gas.org (Note: buyrealgas.com is not kept current and is very outdated).

I'm always amazed that the some of most widespread distribution of 0E is in the corn producing states. They've pulled the wool over everyone elses' eyes but...

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

My Rotax does not have carb heat, but it pulls air from inside the cowl where it is going to be warmer than ambient. Fuel is gravity feed to the fuel pump at the front of the engine.
I have never had an issue with carb ice or vapor lock on any variety of auto fuel (I don't bother to check for E-10 or not).
YMMV

 

[EdFred]

Apparently in the Comanche, Petersen claims we will experience pneumantic lock, which is the opposite of vapor lock. I don't get how my carb can dump nothing but fuel into the cylinders. I think Petersen just has their head up their ass on the mogas STC for Comanches.

 

[brien23]

Who killed the Seattle alcohol from natural gas plant. It's got to be cheaper to produce alcohol from natural gas than corn.

 

[Tom-D]

Awww...Tom got his ego bruised. Heaven forbid someone would actually take the time to research his issue, show him that the product he plans to use isn't suitable for the purpose, and give him good alternatives that will keep him from killing himself or others.

It's really terrible that someone would care enough to go through all that work. Such a horrible place this is.

Your ego will heal, Tom (maybe), but your body migt not if you do something dumb even though you've been warned by experts in the field.

I honestly wonder sometimes why anyone here ever tries to help you.

That's what I can always expect from you. defending thread creep, and making the wrong assumption.

 

[Silvaire]

Back to the original question: Alcohol and water mix, you can't sump water out of alcohol like you can with gasoline. A simple test to determine if a gasoline sample contains ethanol is to add a known quantity of water and see if all of it sinks.

 

[Tom-D]

Back to the original question: Alcohol and water mix, you can't sump water out of alcohol like you can with gasoline. A simple test to determine if a gasoline sample contains ethanol is to add a known quantity of water and see if all of it sinks.

Back to the original question: Alcohol and water mix, you can't sump water out of alcohol like you can with gasoline. A simple test to determine if a gasoline sample contains ethanol is to add a known quantity of water and see if all of it sinks.

That is a way most would try to find the alcohol, but if the alcohol is already saturated with water all the water you put in will sink, giving you a false reading.
The research I have been able to do says that Alcohol is not as harmful to Epoxy resins as many on line experts believe, which they of course they preach as gospel. and when they take these subjects off to any other web page and spout they problem as they have misunderstood makes it even worse. I believe what is written about here should stay here.
The on line foremost Canard expert that Flyingriki went to, at canard groups at Yahoo, tells me " no problem " using auto in good epoxy tanks.
But the experts here assumed "Possibility" in the first post meant " absolutely " that it was going to happen. Which in my opinion means that those who made that assumption can't understand what they read. and renders this page useless to get the proper information to make an informed decision.

For those who did stay on subject and made informative comments you have my gratitude.
Throttle body injection does have icing problem, so it does no advantage to my project by saving the weight and complication of the carb heat plumbing.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

That is a way most would try to find the alcohol, but if the alcohol is already saturated with water all the water you put in will sink, giving you a false reading.

No.
Extra water will cause the ethanol to separate from the gasoline, mix with the water and sink to the bottom.

If you have 100ml of E-10, add 20 ml of water, you will end up with 30 ml of water / ethanol on the bottom and the remaining 90 ml of gasoline on top.

If you add 20 ml of water to E-0 you get a 20 - 100 ratio - not 30 - 90.

The ethanol will hold a little water in suspension with the gasoline - if you put in just a drop or two they will disappear - but the total quantity is pretty limited.

 

[Tom-D]

No.
Extra water will cause the ethanol to separate from the gasoline, mix with the water and sink to the bottom.

If you have 100ml of E-10, add 20 ml of water, you will end up with 30 ml of water / ethanol on the bottom and the remaining 90 ml of gasoline on top.

If you add 20 ml of water to E-0 you get a 20 - 100 ratio - not 30 - 90.

The ethanol will hold a little water in suspension with the gasoline - if you put in just a drop or two they will disappear - but the total quantity is pretty limited.

I believe that is backwards, because many Alaskan pilots add Cristy dry gas to their tanks, which allows the water to mix with the fuel and be burned.
Back in the 80s I worked in the shell refinery, when they over dosed a batch, they would run it thru the centrifuges to separate the lighter Alcohol. I think if they could strip the alcohol by adding water they would have done that.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

I believe that is backwards, because many Alaskan pilots add Cristy dry gas to their tanks, which allows the water to mix with the fuel and be burned.
Back in the 80s I worked in the shell refinery, when they over dosed a batch, they would run it thru the centrifuges to separate the lighter Alcohol. I think if they could strip the alcohol by adding water they would have done that.

Yes, you add alcohol to sop up a little water and mix it with the gasoline.

Add more water and it comes back out. Then you are effed.

The add water to check for ethanol test is pretty common.

Must have been pretty big centrifuges to separate a little alcohol from thousands of gallons of gasoline.

 

[flyingriki]

Awww...Tom got his ego bruised. Heaven forbid someone would actually take the time to research his issue, show him that the product he plans to use isn't suitable for the purpose, and give him good alternatives that will keep him from killing himself or others.

It's really terrible that someone would care enough to go through all that work. Such a horrible place this is.

Your ego will heal, Tom (maybe), but your body migt not if you do something dumb even though you've been warned by experts in the field.

I honestly wonder sometimes why anyone here ever tries to help you.

That sort of thing scares us. Every year we get a couple guys that just go out and buy a plane, don't know squat about the design or construction, don't get a prebuy from a competent canard guy or gal (yes we have a good one!) and then do crazy stuff without asking the experts. Some end up starting their own forums or just keep asking anywhere until they hear something they like - not what the right answer is. By the way, when the right epoxy is used, like a United A&P friend that built his plane, crappy CA auto gas is fine and he has used it since day one, now has well over 1000 hours on the plane. But in the forum I ran this past I got photos of gummed up fuel gauges, and multiple horror stories, including an ex navy pilot that barely made it around the pattern with the engine dying on him from crap in the tanks, in addition to the advice posted.
We have several really good multiple builders and a couple canard shop owners that contribute to one or two canard forums and they know these planes, have seen the foolishness, fixed a lot of them and can be very valuable.
He appears to live in the Pacific Northwest where we have a couple Boeing engineers that built multiple planes and know them well. But I know for a fact that at least one of them doesn't suffer fools lightly and if you don't want to listen will just walk away.
The big thing is after John Denver and a couple other less famous crashes we just don't need the publicity and sure don't want any screwed up planes out there getting resold to others who don't pay attention.

 

[Tom-D]

That sort of thing scares us. Every year we get a couple guys that just go out and buy a plane, don't know squat about the design or construction, don't get a prebuy from a competent canard guy or gal (yes we have a good one!) and then do crazy stuff without asking the experts. Some end up starting their own forums or just keep asking anywhere until they hear something they like - not what the right answer is. By the way, when the right epoxy is used, like a United A&P friend that built his plane, crappy CA auto gas is fine and he has used it since day one, now has well over 1000 hours on the plane. But in the forum I ran this past I got photos of gummed up fuel gauges, and multiple horror stories, including an ex navy pilot that barely made it around the pattern with the engine dying on him from crap in the tanks, in addition to the advice posted.
We have several really good multiple builders and a couple canard shop owners that contribute to one or two canard forums and they know these planes, have seen the foolishness, fixed a lot of them and can be very valuable.

And I'm in touch with three of them, And they tell me of your reputation.

He appears to live in the Pacific Northwest where we have a couple Boeing engineers that built multiple planes and know them well. But I know for a fact that at least one of them doesn't suffer fools lightly and if you don't want to listen will just walk away.

And he lives in Mukilteo, and is building his 3rd Canard, I talk to him almost daily. So why don't you just STFU, Because I'm in contact with the best, and you are not included.

The big thing is after John Denver and a couple other less famous crashes we just don't need the publicity and sure don't want any screwed up planes out there getting resold to others who don't pay attention.

What makes you believe that competent Cunard people have not already inspected this Aircraft ? You don't know a blinking thing about what is happening with this aircraft all you can do is make up stuff and post it on the internet.

There are several Cunard knowledgable people that have warned me about you ( Mr V.) Your credibility on the Canard mailing list is in the minus numbers.
So tell the folks, what is the first thing you must do when importing any aircraft prior to requesting an Airworthiness certificate?