@ 1000 hrs - Need some Advice

@USAF-LT-G , I'm not sure why you would think it is going to cost 15K for an IR rating, Mine was only 7K. Plus I'm sure if you do some digging around there is someone else wanting to work on the same thing you are. Find someone and split the cost.If you are paying that much you are getting ripped off. My suggestion is this, Find the plane you want and get it. Do your IR training in it, that way you can meet whatever hours requirement your insurance comes with and you also will feel comfortable in IMC. Just do some shopping for insurance to get the best deal for your seal.
 
@USAF-LT-G , I'm not sure why you would think it is going to cost 15K for an IR rating, Mine was only 7K. Plus I'm sure if you do some digging around there is someone else wanting to work on the same thing you are. Find someone and split the cost.If you are paying that much you are getting ripped off. My suggestion is this, Find the plane you want and get it. Do your IR training in it, that way you can meet whatever hours requirement your insurance comes with and you also will feel comfortable in IMC. Just do some shopping for insurance to get the best deal for your seal.

Major city - Major Dollars. Pay to play. Virtually every school in the area charges this much regardless of your skill set. ARR - their censna shop with state of the art sim g1000, etc - quoted me 17k under part 61. Dupage - illinois aviation academy - 15k, there's another one at Dupage as well, and I forget their name... Same thing.


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Then.... leave the city.

GATTS in Manhattan, KS has worked for many folk and will be much less than what you just told us.

PIC also has advantageous rental arrangements with many FBO's around the country.

Both of those have the appropriate SIM time included in their costs.
 
@USAF-LT-G yeah what the guy above me said. No one is making you stay in CHI.I also know people that went to Manhattan as well. I mean I am going to go to Florida to save 1K dollars on my multi-engine the schools around Atlanta are pricey. Even if you do not have your own plane you are still going to save money. And maybe you can get some plane to tie you over till you get what you really want. That's what I did, I saved over 20K in rental cost. And if you are flying as much as you are, I am shocked you dont have your own plane yet.
 
And if you are flying as much as you are, I am shocked you dont have your own plane yet.

Well this is due to #1 - Don't know enough about the process, nor anyone to talk over the process with me. I don't want to buy "junk," or a fixer upper right out the gate. Have asked people I know in the past to help me in this process, but no one serious to actually work with me on it.

I'm going to take this is a couple different approaches. I think the POA (Plan-of-Action), will be to simultaneously workn on a Gleim / Sheppard Ground / Written course on-line, while at the same time trying to get a hold of some of the recommended folks on here who are local, that can help me figure out the buying. There's no point in me getting a "non-mission-ready" plane temporarily. I'd rather do all my training on the plane i'm going to being flying long-haul..... this does a few things for me: get's me comfortable with the plane and instruments, meets insurance reqs., provides me a cheaper overall experience.

I think that's the magic trifecta of winnings here.... ;)
 
The A36 is one. A really nice feature of that airframe are the rear doors.

Of the various people the OP might want to discuss ownership with for a project like this, Ted DuPuis and Bruce Chien come to mind. Both have a huge amount of ownership experience, operate in the same region as the OP, and are often willing to share wisdom about aircraft, especially multi engine ones. Likely there are others, but those two are in my top five to talk to if I was considering what the OP is considering.

Any idea what their screen names are?


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....Cherokee Six 300 or Saratoga...is safe, less complex and cheaper than Malibu.
Google: 2 Day IFR WRITTEN ...put on by American Flyer at diff cities...$400.00...but I took a week-end coarse by a private company...good but accelerated...don't remember who!!!GOOD LUCK


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Google: 2 Day IFR WRITTEN ...put on by American Flyer at diff cities...$400.00...
These cram courses can help to pass the exam, but (1) can be made more difficult if you are starting completely cold with no prior background in the material and (2) Do little to impart the needed key items that you should know for the check ride and flying after the ride.
 
These cram courses can help to pass the exam, but (1) can be made more difficult if you are starting completely cold with no prior background in the material and (2) Do little to impart the needed key items that you should know for the check ride and flying after the ride.

Agreed, which is why I was thinking of doing more the IFR course online with Gleim. At one point I think they had a 141 approved IFR course, but I'm not sure if that's overkill, or even offered anymore.
 
I bought my faster plane before getting my IFR so I could learn in my plane. It also saved some significant cash but the learning in my plane was more important to me. I know at least a dozen pilots that have been 'working' on their IFR for years and many more that started towards it but gave up. In each case they were trying to do it on weekends like they flew when they got their private and just didn't fly enough to keep progressing.

I decided that going to an accelerated course was my best bet. After spending close to two months checking options I decided on the 7 day course Gatts offers out of Manhattan, KS. Their on-line material says they want you to have 10-hours IFR first. All I had was the three hours I'd gotten with my private more than 8 years earlier so I didn't like the sound of that.

I called them and told them I'd like to use them but had no interest in starting with one instructor to get the additional 7 hours and them switching to them. They told me that since I lived near Houston that if I'd pay to have one of their instructors fly with me to Manhattan they seem me ready to start. Their instructor flew commercial to Houston early one Sunday morning and we flew to Manhattan that day. I started training the next day, passed my checkride the following Monday morning and flew back to Houston.

I started the last week of April and was flying real IFR on the first day and most if the time for the first three days. I was very comfortable within 4 days and by the fifth day the instructor said he thought I was ready so the rest of the time was primarily flying off the hours and doing mock check rides. The check ride was fun (not what I expected) because I was so comfortable. That was three years ago this April and I've flown a lot of IFR since including low IFR approaches. I paid a total of $600 extra to fly back with their instructor including his airfare to Houston.

Obviously I think they were a great choice for me. One of the things I really liked is that they have a sign up that says flight training is not boot camp, it's supposed to be fun, and they work hard to make sure that happens. I enjoyed my time with them and felt like it was one of the best one week 'vacations, that I've had

Good luck

Gary
 
I'm going to resurrect this for a moment.....

I just realized I still have a cpl of years left on my ol 911 GI Bill. Technically i believe I still qualify for both the 911 (Expires in 2019.... I Think june of 2019) and then the ol' Montgomery GI Bill.....

That being the case, I'm "pretty" sure, everything they'll flip the bill for has to be Part 141, but.... it's free money. Unless I'm wrong?

However, I'm not certain there's any 141 schools around me anymore, except maybe Illinois Aviation Academy? I've visited there facilities before and don't care for them. Anyone else know?
 
I think a Lance will meet most of the requirements but I have not seen any Lance-Togas with deicing boots but I have seen one T Saratoga with TKS deicing but that could be very expensive STC and there could be a hefty weight penalty. I fly a T tail Lance which has club seating. Try to find a good T tail Lance ( they have generally discounted prices) with good auto pilot. During the last six months of 16 I flew my Lance for work twice a week with 4 hours round trips. From my experience with some weather during those trips I can tell you that Lance can handle some degree of ice OK. Just have a way out and do it fast.
BTW your post was interesting and insightful
 
1) IR written - I used the Gleim book. We were on vacation in Cape May, Nj. Every night after the kids were in bed I worked through one or two chapters with a glass or two, probably two, of wine. Got back from vacation and earned a 98. Factors for success - concentrate, don't let the prep drag out. The written is not particularly challenging.

2) IR rating - I used PIC. Believe everyone who tells you that 10 days of intense IR training is intense. Because it is. I shipped the family out of town for a week so it was just me and my instructor. My brain was mush at the end of every day. The family got home day 7 and I was not happy to see them. Unless you can get total disengagement from life for 10 straight days it may not work. I can't imagine doing it all day then trying to, say, reply to business emails all night.

3) Aircraft - I have owned 3 FIKI planes. A Matrix, a Meridian, and now a 414A. Great piece of mind, but only as an escape mechanism. Icing Airmets tend to be overstated but IMHO FIKI is no guarantee of an ability to fly in the crappy wx that often exists between IL and MA in the winter. If I had a jet and could vault up to 40k, then it would be different. Pistons and light turboprops don't cut it. One man's opinion. Any chance of SLD or Mod-Heavy ice and I fly another day or take the long way around, if that is even possible. For me though, it is more often the gusty winter winds that drive my no-gos. Lots of those days in New England, and it is always a direct crosswind or so it seems.

4) Do some honest weight and balance calcs on a/c you are considering. Actual pax and fuel loads, for actual flight stages. 6 seaters are 5 seaters at best, as you probably know. The Meridian is more like a 4 seater at best. A Saratoga is slow and steady. An older Malibu would be nice, that Continental requires LOP by design and runs smooth, prices are good. Just make sure you have an engine monitor. Say, $300k for speed, pressurization, and FIKi. Plus you can fly over a lot of weather. Mirages are heavier so less payload.

5) I would never plan on an IL-MA commute on a regular need-to-get-there basis unless I was confident that I had a full day's leeway on either side of the trip, and even then....
 
I got as far as the last paragraph...whew!
I was married for a long time ( or it felt ling) and hence patience is my middle name now. I read the whole thing. Nothing for the OP thought, other than the obvious indicator thing

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Perhaps I'm reading this wrong as I'm not really any good at this stuff, but....

Did you say your employer reimburses your flying expenses to visit customers, yet you are a private pilot??

I thought that wasn't allowed. Again, I'm really not very good at deciphering those rules.
 
An A36 with FIKI TKS, a 300hp engine and tip tanks will do what you are looking for in payload, range and the ability to get out of Du Page between October and April. As mentioned above, its still 'small plane aviation' and you need to have a day or two wiggle-room at either end of the trips.
 
I'm going to resurrect this for a moment.....

I just realized I still have a cpl of years left on my ol 911 GI Bill. Technically i believe I still qualify for both the 911 (Expires in 2019.... I Think june of 2019) and then the ol' Montgomery GI Bill.....

That being the case, I'm "pretty" sure, everything they'll flip the bill for has to be Part 141, but.... it's free money. Unless I'm wrong?

However, I'm not certain there's any 141 schools around me anymore, except maybe Illinois Aviation Academy? I've visited there facilities before and don't care for them. Anyone else know?


Could you please explain "free money" to this tax paying citizen please?
 
Could you please explain "free money" to this tax paying citizen please?

It is an educational benefit he earned through military service. It is 'free money' in the sense that if he doesn't use it to go to college or add aviation ratings it eventually goes away.
 
Perhaps I'm reading this wrong as I'm not really any good at this stuff, but....

Did you say your employer reimburses your flying expenses to visit customers, yet you are a private pilot??

I thought that wasn't allowed. Again, I'm really not very good at deciphering those rules.
Add in that he's flying customers around and I had the same question.
 
Add in that he's flying customers around and I had the same question.

Mangiamele addressed reimbursement to an employee. From what I can gather he is one of the two principals of the company. The issue whether the owner of a company needs a commercial ticket when he flies on company business with either staff or customers on board has never been addressed. Many business owners interpret the Mangiamele decision in a way that it doesn't apply to them.

I have no comment on whether they are correct.
 
Mangiamele addressed reimbursement to an employee. From what I can gather he is one of the two principals of the company. The issue whether the owner of a company needs a commercial ticket when he flies on company business with either staff or customers on board has never been addressed. Many business owners interpret the Mangiamele decision in a way that it doesn't apply to them.

I have no comment on whether they are correct.
How can flying customers around Be incidental to the business?
 
Could you please explain "free money" to this tax paying citizen please?
Paid $1,200 for mine the first of five years active duty. Received back $6,000 to go to HVAC tech school. It is a nice program.
 
Paid $1,200 for mine the first of five years active duty. Received back $6,000 to go to HVAC tech school. It is a nice program.
I think his point is that the money is not free. Taxpayers are paying for it.

It is small thanks for the sacrifices our military personnel make, they deserve more than we give them, but I agree that considering it free money is a little off. Would you respond that way to your grandma that gave you cash for your birthday?
 
How can flying customers around Be incidental to the business?

How is it not ? You are not getting paid to fly them around. You are getting paid to sell them something, build something, install something, consult something....
 
Wow ok, the argument just took another direction. Yes I'm a principal, no I'm not being paid for hire, I'm flying myself to a customer site to conduct a meeting. If customers are with me, it is considered a recreational flight to get dinner. Customer is not paying for anything. As a principal I'm reimbursing myself. Calm down folks.


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I think his point is that the money is not free. Taxpayers are paying for it.

It is small thanks for the sacrifices our military personnel make, they deserve more than we give them, but I agree that considering it free money is a little off. Would you respond that way to your grandma that gave you cash for your birthday?

As for the comment on "free money" it's free to me. It's money that I put in when I was active, that I get back out that can only be used for educational / vocational (pilot training post PPL) sitting around for so many years before it expires and is never heard of again.


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This post is a bit old though and getting off topic now. I revitalized it to bring up IFR again, and see if anyone had experience using their GI benefits for IFR training either under 61, or if I had to use it under 141 and if anyone knew any 141s in the Chicagoland area.


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Wow ok, the argument just took another direction. Yes I'm a principal, no I'm not being paid for hire, I'm flying myself to a customer site to conduct a meeting. If customers are with me, it is considered a recreational flight to get dinner. Customer is not paying for anything. As a principal I'm reimbursing myself. Calm down folks.

It is not a recreational flight if you perform it in furtherance of your business. The letter of the law allows you to fly in furtherance of your business on a private ticket.

The problem is that a junior staff lawyer at the FAA twisted himself into a logical pretzel and issued an interpretation that eliminated most business use for employees. You can certainly argue that this letter of misinterpretation doesn't apply to you as the owner of the company.
 
It is not a recreational flight if you perform it in furtherance of your business. The letter of the law allows you to fly in furtherance of your business on a private ticket.

The problem is that a junior staff lawyer at the FAA twisted himself into a logical pretzel and issued an interpretation that eliminated most business use for employees. You can certainly argue that this letter of misinterpretation doesn't apply to you as the owner of the company.

I'm not making deals at dinner or the golf course. These are people I work with that say "hey, you're a pilot, Cool, can we fly
Sometime...."

By taking people up in an airplane with me, who happen to be from a customer, is not being used to "further the business". Furthermore if I'm taking a client / customer / business colleauge somewhere, it's not on the expense books anyways.

It's called relationship building and they exist within and outside of the business.

I could argue 6 ways to Sunday. It would be another thing if I were blatantly being paid for hire, offering oeople and their wives free trips to cancun all expenses paid if they sign a deal etc..... But that's just simply not the case here.


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I'm not making deals at dinner or the golf course. These are people I work with that say "hey, you're a pilot, Cool, can we fly
Sometime...."

By taking people up in an airplane with me, who happen to be from a customer, is not being used to "further the business". Furthermore if I'm taking a client / customer / business colleauge somewhere, it's not on the expense books anyways.

Look up the FAAs definition of 'goodwill'. If these folks are your customers, that flight to dinner is considered business by the FAA.
 
1) I agree with everything you said about DPA. I used to be an officer with Fox Flying Club and am intimately familiar with that place. It was very convenient for me also, but I'm glad to be rid of it.

2) Have you considered moving? For your lifestyle you are a *perfect* candidate for living at an airpark. Meadow Creek is a nice one and you could fly to Lake in the Hills. Poplar Grove is a great option also. I have friends at both of those, so can recommend them first hand. I'm sure there are others that a great also.

3) I did the accelerated IFR with American Flyers when they were still at DPA. I really liked the program and second the recommendation for it, even though it's now quite a bit less convenient to get to.
 
Look up the FAAs definition of 'goodwill'. If these folks are your customers, that flight to dinner is considered business by the FAA.

It's only considered business if for the purposes of furthering the business. The point, is that this can be argued. There is also no business being conducted in flight. Per a case law argument which i found....

For reference:
...the FAA stated that, with the exception of goodwill, 1 the definition of "compensation or hire" is the same as that interpreted in the aviation regulations. Specifically, "compensation may include any form of payment, including payment of operating costs such as fuel, a tax deduction if a flight is for charity, payment by a third-pmiy, any non-monetary exchange for carrying a person for free (for example, the operator receives free advertising., parts~ or rnaintenance, and the like), or any exchange of value including the bartering of goods or services in exchange for the transportation.'" Conversely, winning prize money, adve1iising revenue from logos, and flying space flight participants for free are allowed under§ 437.91. !d. Blue Origin will not receive any fonn of compensation as discussed above for flying the Kindles, and therefore will not violate§ 437.91.2 Although it is not providing compensation to Blue Origin, An1azon is a customer. Section 440.3 defines customer as any person who "has placed property on board the payload for launch, reentry, or payload services .... " 14 C.F.R. § 440.3. Amazon meets the definition of customer because it is placing property on board the payload. However, the FAA contemplated non-paying customers for permitted operators. This is demonstrated by the requirement that a permittee execute a waiver of claims with its customers. Specifically, part 440 requires permittees to implement a reciprocal waiver of claims with each of its customers. See 14 C.P.R. 440.17(b); see also 14 C.P.R. 440 appendix C (providing a template of a waiver of claims and assumption of responsibility for permitted activities with one customer).

1 - Definition of Goodwill - Although carrying goods on board its vehicle without receiving compensation may generate goodwill, the FAA does not consider goodwill compensation
 
3) I did the accelerated IFR with American Flyers when they were still at DPA. I really liked the program and second the recommendation for it, even though it's now quite a bit less convenient to get to.

Is there another American Flyers somewhere? I've had great experience with them in the past when they were at PWK. But I could find no reference to American Flyers anywhere in Illinois anymore.
 
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