100 hour wonders.... amazing

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SixPapaCharlie said:
I read the OP 3 times and I'm still not sure what its about.
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Ryanb said:
The ego tends to get bigger with every hour gained.
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I wouldn't say the ego gets bigger, but the experience base does. I'm sure in my 12000 hrs I've seen and experienced (and learned from) a lot more than a 100 hr pp.
 
Isn't a facet of good CRM listening to everyone, no matter what their experience level?

Thinking that one is so knowledgeable that they have nothing to learn from somebody of "lesser" skill; isn't that a macho thing?

Hazardous Attitude 5: Macho
'Come on! I can do this!'
Pilots have a tendency to show how good they are. Many associate this attitude with males (especially those who display alpha male characteristics) but such an attitude can also happen in females. It occurs when pilots are trying to prove themselves in the wrong way, which often results in taking unnecessary risks.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I think the underlying message in this thread is:

Regardless of the hours you have flying an airplane, as a pilot, whether asking or answering a question, don't be a dick about it.
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I thought the message was us low time pilots are d***s. That means high time pilots were once d***s too. Does that mean they are now d***less?

SixPapaCharlie said:
I read the OP 3 times and I'm still not sure what its about.
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That.
 
StevieTimes said:
Isn't a facet of good CRM listening to everyone, no matter what their experience level?

Thinking that one is so knowledgeable that they have nothing to learn from somebody of "lesser" skill; isn't that a macho thing?

Hazardous Attitude 5: Macho
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While a true statement, I have landed in small landing areas where a PP in the right seat is screaming because he absolutely knew I could not land a plane there. He was wrong. Then a week later coming out he asked about how I would do the take off. I was happy to explain that to him, and he was Ok with that. Of course being in a hunting camp for a week with out any modern conveniences like running water, lights and any food that wasn't freeze dried first may have influenced his decision to really want to leave...

I used to fly tours out of Kantishna landing strip that was marked hazardous on the Alaska chart. On landing I have had a few very experienced ATPs get wide-eyed and grab onto their shoulder strap hanging on for dear life while on very short final. My aim point was a creek and my landing spot was the strip threshold. Not a single one said a word until we got out of the plane... and usually those words were something like, ''Wow... that was exciting..!!'' :lol:
 
There are some great pilots and some not so great pilots. The amount of hours doesn’t always play into your ability.
 
doesn't matter who you are & end up 1 mistake wonder
 
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James_Dean said:
I felt really proud as a 150 hr IR rated pilot, and as I used my saratoga to travel I felt pretty good for several years. Then I scared myself a few times, inadvertently found some ice, had some equipment failures, and started to feel a little sheepish. Stopped flying as much and put some stricter personal limits on myself and definitely tighter limits on flying with the family on board. Upgraded to the 310 and, while I got very comfortable, I started realizing that I still had much to learn about flying "well". Flew nearly 300 hours in one year and was feeling *REALLY* good, and then I lost an engine above a deck in icing conditions. I handled it ok and landed safely*, but upon further reflection realized that I was only a few degrees below a helmet fire that might've put me in a bad place. Upgraded to the Conquest and have had many rounds of simulator training and time with "pros". I feel like I fly very well and am confident in my knowledge of the system and the aircraft. The only thing I'm absolutely certain of as I approach the ripe old age of 43, have 1,700 hours and fly a very capable airframe.....is that I have a lot yet to learn.


YMMV,

Eggman
Who continues to dream of a CJ but also thinks there are a bunch of over confident curmudgeons in this game
*Shout out to @Ted DuPuis
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This is a great post. It certainly seems the larger and more capable aircraft I fly the less I realize I know. I felt a lot smarter flying the Skylane than I do in the 310. Hopefully in a couple years I can get a little dumber in a turbine. And while the 310 has opened up the operational window it is certainly not open 100% of the time.

I know a kid who flies a 340. Six hundred hours when he started flying it. His dispatch rate is insane, but I suspect if he and his passengers survive the first year in it he will start learning to say no. He goes into crap I wouldn't touch in the 310 "because it's FIKI". I've got triple the time he does but he won't ask a bit of advice from me because he's got the pressurized airplane so what do I know? o_O
 
Sometimes, complacency sets in as more hours are accrued. You never want to be that guy.

An acquaintance of mine with more than 2000 hours ran a tank dry on a short hop from Fullerton to Brackett. Set 'er down on the roof of a warehouse and fortunately escaped with a few broken bones and lacerations.

Fuel selector was set to the dry tank, and there was about 7 gallons in the other. :eek:
 
Z06_Mir said:
This is a great post. It certainly seems the larger and more capable aircraft I fly the less I realize I know. I felt a lot smarter flying the Skylane than I do in the 310. Hopefully in a couple years I can get a little dumber in a turbine. And while the 310 has opened up the operational window it is certainly not open 100% of the time.

I know a kid who flies a 340. Six hundred hours when he started flying it. His dispatch rate is insane, but I suspect if he and his passengers survive the first year in it he will start learning to say no. He goes into crap I wouldn't touch in the 310 "because it's FIKI". I've got triple the time he does but he won't ask a bit of advice from me because he's got the pressurized airplane so what do I know? o_O
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I've seen both sides of that scenario. Generally the person who says "Because it's FIKI" isn't understanding that FIKI isn't a blank check that means the plane will handle all icing, they turn into bricks pretty quick. He'll probably scare himself at some point getting iced up trying to climb through a layer in the upper teens or low flight levels (where climb performance really starts to run out on those planes) and like you said after that probably make fewer "go" decisions. Or he'll end up too close to a thunderstorm. Hopefully not an NTSB report.

On the other side of it, I see a lot of people make no-gos in weather that really isn't a big deal because they either don't understand the machine's capabilities or don't understand the weather products and how to make a flight plan with contingencies. I know when I was in the <1,000 hour realm there were no-go decisions I made that today I would've gone, and now having had the benefit of around 500 hours in pressurized aircraft that it's been very educational. @tonycondon once made the point that each rating or increased capability you make serves to make the go/no-go decision harder, at least if you're doing it right. Generally the pitfall I see for new pilots of pressurized aircraft is that they get intoxicated by the altitude capability (metaphorically speaking) and think they'll be on top of everything. Of course that's not true. I've actually had more actual IMC time in the MU-2 than I had in the 414, even though the 414 was a FL180-190 plane mostly and in the MU-2 I'm normally FL200-250.

End of the day, my dispatchability is really high. This night flight a couple months back had enough external lights that I practically didn't need any cabin lighting:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/N228WP/history/20181007/2345Z/KDAL/KMKC

Wouldn't have been possible if I didn't know the machine and the equipment, not to mention a good bit of luck as far as timing goes. Hello on-board radar (RDR-2000, for those counting). Oh, and ATC was trying to vector and descend me into a storm towards the end. I told them "Unable" and what I needed. They didn't like it but I got in without touching any precip. Finished putting the plane away just as +TSRA hit MKC.

I wasn't the only one in the air, tons of airliners out.

Not making any point in particular, just conversation.
 
Kritchlow said:
I find most every student pilot here is truly trying to absorb knowledge from others.
Once they get their PPL, they are submissive, yet are proud of their accomplishment as they should be. They usually go on to say this is their license to learn, Yada yada, blah blah.
Then they hit about a whooping 100 hrs and think they know everything, and will argue 20,000 hour ATP guys. Correct, aq
Yeah, we don’t know all the exact 91 rules you may know, but believe me, we know the real world a whole lot better than you.

Trust me young boy, you know very little about aviation.

I’m certain this will be turned into a ragging in Kritch thread.

That said, I’m standing my ground.
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But you don't know nuthin' about polska kielbasa.....
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Sometimes, complacency sets in as more hours are accrued. You never want to be that guy.

An acquaintance of mine with more than 2000 hours ran a tank dry on a short hop from Fullerton to Brackett. Set 'er down on the roof of a warehouse and fortunately escaped with a few broken bones and lacerations.

Fuel selector was set to the dry tank, and there was about 7 gallons in the other. :eek:
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That’s not just complacency IMO. That’s

not following a checklist.
Not following an emergency checklist.
Not doing basic problem solving.

Forgetting to switch to fullest tank in the first place is just one of many problems.
 
Zeldman said:
While a true statement, I have landed in small landing areas where a PP in the right seat is screaming because he absolutely knew I could not land a plane there. He was wrong.
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Many of us fly to airports with paved runways at least 5,000' long, most, if not all, of the time. Plenty of places you've been that are easy-peasy to you would look like a death-trap to many of us.

Add that you have far better energy management, i.e. not adding 10-20 knots on final like many private pilots (for "safety"). It's amazing how short most planes will land when one comes in at the right speed.
 
StevieTimes said:
Isn't a facet of good CRM listening to everyone, no matter what their experience level?

Thinking that one is so knowledgeable that they have nothing to learn from somebody of "lesser" skill; isn't that a macho thing?

Hazardous Attitude 5: Macho
'Come on! I can do this!'
Pilots have a tendency to show how good they are. Many associate this attitude with males (especially those who display alpha male characteristics) but such an attitude can also happen in females. It occurs when pilots are trying to prove themselves in the wrong way, which often results in taking unnecessary risks.
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Not for me. If I have 20,000 hours and fly with a guy that has 3,000, I figure together we have 23,000 hrs experience. He very well may have seen something in that 3,000 that I haven’t.
Proper CRM is truly key, but they don’t teach that much to single pilot PPs.
I think Timbuktu got it right. It’s mostly about the attitudes (both the low time and high time guy).
Disclaimer... I used a low time guy in this post as w 3,000 hr guy simply because that’s almost the lowest at our airline.
 
Hacker said:
Airmanship and judgment can neither be taught nor learned in a classroom.

It takes experience.
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True, and we all have modified plenty of policies and procedures from our experiences to bring into the classroom - because sometimes teaching from experience causes improved airmanship and judgement.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk
 
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Eric Stoltz said:
because sometimes teaching from experience causes improved airmanship and judgement.
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Depends on how you define "causes".

Students and new pilots have no basis of experience on which to make airmanship decisions, so they (knowingly or not) rely on either rote following the artificial guidelines they've been given by their instructors or flight schools, or mimicking the *decisions* they've observed their instructors make during training.

The first one is, for example, the "personal weather mins" that instructors or schools put on low time pilots, but it includes a lot of other procedural limitations like verbal checklist challenge-and-response, or pattern bank angle limits, or any number of other artificial limits that are effectively "bumpers" that keep pilot actions at the warm, chewy center of the decisionmaking (and aircraft performance) envelope.

The second is, by far, the most important of the two. Since they don't know any different, students and new pilots are going to assume that the decisions made by their instructors and mentors (both on the ground and in flight) are by default the type of decisions that they, too, should make.

It is vitally important to understand, though, that following rote guidelines that applied during training, and imitating decisions made by instructors or mentors, is not the same as actually having airmanship or having judgment and decisionmaking.

Generally, students aren't told, and don't think to ask, why the "artificial guidelines" they're presented with exist, nor are they privy to the reasoning leading up to the creation of those guidelines. Airmanship, judgment, and decisionmaking means that they understand the problem, understand the process by which the result was determined, and have the experience and knowledge to evaluate the need (or lack of need) for such a guideline.

The same goes for not being able to see inside the brains of their instructors when they're making decisions or modeling (hopefully) good airmanship. Hopefully good instructors are talking their way through their reasoning with their students when they're making decisions in flight, but again, without the basis of experience behind that decisionmaking, it can be difficult for students to really understand *why* instructors, mentors, or more experienced pilots are doing what they're doing.

It is the difference between eating a piece of cake and being able to bake the cake. A new pilot may be able to recognize a tasty piece of cake, but it takes experience to figure out how to bake one for themselves rather than eat someone else's...so to speak.
 
It seems to me that personality types and communication styles play heavily into this.

Case in point. I've worked with quite a few instructors, and learned that everyone does things just a little bit different. Yes, same guidelines, but none the complete same. The experience I gained from each one of those instructors would have been much less had I not continuously asked them "Why do you do it that way?". The vast majority always answered with "Well, from my experience this works better for me because..." or "One time I did it like so, this happened, and I decided that this way worked better to avoid that scenario...", or shared an experience that someone else had which led them to do it their way.

Only once was I met with a response of "Because that is how I do it, I'm the CFI, that is how I want you to do it, and that is how you need to do it, so stop asking." That was a huge surprise to me, and I was taken aback. A while later I explained that I was only asking because I wanted to know for myself the reasoning behind the decision, and I wasn't questioning the CFI's practices or judgement. He didn't really apologize, but he explained, and life moved on. But that wasn't an instructor that I wanted to continue with because I was only trying to better understand the process that went into forming that particular habit of doing things that way, and if he wasn't ok with that, then it just means we aren't compatible. No hard feelings, it just isn't going to work.

It goes to the point that @Hacker made above about Airmanship and Judgement neither taught or learned in a classroom. By asking the "whys" behind the "do's/do not's", I believe (at least for myself) it helps build a foundation of thinking through the processes of "what ifs" instead of just relying on people to teach you what you know to pass an exam. Which, BTW, is something I cannot stand. "Here's a study guide, memorize the answers to the questions." without any reference as to why a particular answer is correct. Or "Do this on your checkride because this is what the examiner wants to see." Well, is that right? Or just what he wants to see? Can you stop trying to teach me to pass an exam, and teach me what I need to know behind all of this?
 
Let me know if you see signs of this coming from me. I'm betting you won't but even more so, by that time I'm betting you might have to pass the watch on to your children.

But I do have one question, how were you at 100+ hours :)

I started learning to fly way too late in life to get the chance to be a know-it-all, and with age also comes the irrefutable evidence that things I thought I was pretty good at...still have a lot to learn.

Just hoping some day I feel confident flying on my own, and like I can not exactly relax, but yeah, just feel I'm in control a little bit and have a handle on it.
 
Kritchlow said:
Then they hit about a whooping 100 hrs and think they know everything, and will argue 20,000 hour ATP guys.
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Lighten up Francis. If you can't name someone, then you're setting up a straw man and running it down all in one post. I'll bet you don't even realize that you're doing it. Frankly, I'm more than a little offended at what you say. We younger pilots are interested in learning, but we're not going to bow down and kiss your feet, so stop asking for it you pompous twit.

Yes, I've got 200 hours. No, I don't know everything about flying. But I do know that how you fly a 172 and how you fly a 747 share the same principals and differ in execution. Now you're supposed to tell me I'm wrong and don't know jack.
 
Of course it also works the other way around. There seems to be a tendency, once some pilots start flying for work instead of for themselves, for them to suddenly become massively snobbish and somehow convinced that anything less than an airliner is a deathtrap and shouldn't be allowed.
 
bflynn said:
Lighten up Francis. If you can't name someone, then you're setting up a straw man and running it down all in one post. I'll bet you don't even realize that you're doing it. Frankly, I'm more than a little offended at what you say. We younger pilots are interested in learning, but we're not going to bow down and kiss your feet, so stop asking for it you pompous twit.

Yes, I've got 200 hours. No, I don't know everything about flying. But I do know that how you fly a 172 and how you fly a 747 share the same principals and differ in execution. Now you're supposed to tell me I'm wrong and don't know jack.
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Your post somewhat proves my point.
I’m not saying you should as you say “bow down”, but I’m happy to hear you are happy to learn.
Yes, the flying principles are the same between a C172 and a B747, but the experience level between the two pilots is likely quite different.
That’s the point I’m trying to make.
 
Katamarino said:
Of course it also works the other way around. There seems to be a tendency, once some pilots start flying for work instead of for themselves, for them to suddenly become massively snobbish and somehow convinced that anything less than an airliner is a deathtrap and shouldn't be allowed.
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Are you kidding?? I have followed your threads and I’m absolutely certain I could learn a ton from you and the type of flying you have done.
 
Kritchlow said:
Are you kidding?? I have followed your threads and I’m absolutely certain I could learn a ton from you and the type of flying you have done.
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I said some pilots; definitely not all! Most pilots, GA or Commercial, new or experienced, are great.
 
Katamarino said:
I said some pilots; definitely not all! Most pilots, GA or Commercial, new or experienced, are great.
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I would absolutely LOVE to sit down with you over a few beers and pick your brain (gross saying, but you get my drift) about your experiences.
My point of this thread is most PPs don’t have the experience in every day flying to start telling a 20,000 hour guy how it’s done. Sure they can quote the rules way better than I can, but when it comes to every day practices more often than not the PP could take some advice from the high time guy.
Often here they don’t want to hear that advice.
 
anyone can end up a 1 mistake wonder
 
Anymouse said:
The OP would have been a bit more relevant if it was referencing the 1000 hour wonder.
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I’m the OP and not sure what you mean.
Perhaps I do, but not sure. The young FO that knows (thinks he does) everything??
If so, yes that’s a problem as well.
 
vman said:
anyone can end up a 1 mistake wonder
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Well that’s certainly true. And the moment anyone thinks otherwise it’s the time to hang up the career.
 
Stages of piloting
1) You don't know and you don't know you don't know.
2) You don't know and start to realize you don't know.
3) You begin to know...this never ends...
 
Kelvin said:
Stages of piloting
1) You don't know and you don't know you don't know.
2) You don't know and start to realize you don't know.
3) You begin to know...this never ends...
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You forgot the one where you know everybody else knows less than you, as per the OP
 
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