10 years since Jessica Dubroff's accident.

[wbarnhill]

As we approach a decade since Jessica Dubroff attempted to become the youngest person to fly coast to coast, and the resulting legislation intended to prevent further record attempts (49 USC 44724), I'm interested in seeing how everyone feels about these attempts (including hers) and how the government handled things afterwards.

I was only 13 at the time, though I'm sure I would've loved to accomplish the same feat. I'm slightly wavering on the legislation. I can understand the media frenzy could entice someone to push limits and make stupid decisions (as the PIC did in taking off in deteriorating conditions), but after all of the NTSB reports we've seen, it doesn't take a media frenzy for the exact same thing to occur.

Thoughts?

 

[alaskaflyer]

My thoughts are that - as in many situations - the old saying that hard cases make bad law rings true for this. Who actually crashed the plane that day? Jessica? Nope, it was her flight instructor according to the NTSB.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

It was a dumb concept for her to try to make that "record", perpetrated by people and family with little concept of real accomplishment. We shouldn't need a law against that type of thing but since there's a large supply of people that think such feats are really noteworthy, we must put up with the various expenses and negative PR involved with implementing the protective legislation.

I don't see any big problems with that particular reg, but there may be some.

 

[poadeleted1]

I agree with Dave's comments. Further evidence that Darwin was right and sometimes there are unintended consequences to actions.

 

[Frank Browne]

My thoughts are that - as in many situations - the old saying that hard cases make bad law rings true for this. Who actually crashed the plane that day? Jessica? Nope, it was her flight instructor according to the NTSB.

I agree completely. I'm squimish about attempting to legislate poor judgement out of existence. I don't believe it possible. The PIC of that flight should have excercized his authority and delayed the T/O until the weather improved. Sadly, three people died because they didn't want to be late for their next media appointment.

 

[Dean]

80% of our laws are put in place to protect us from "US" One of my favorite quotes is " God must have loved stupid people, cause he made a bunch of them" Being a L.E. officer, I have seen some really stupid people tricks, and the scarey thing, these people reproduce!

 

[Missa]

I don't think we should legislate the dumb out of people. This flight done correctly with good judgment can be accomplished safely. I don't believe in restricting the freedoms of everyone based on the stupidity of some people. Let the stupid people kill themselves; it will make it better for the rest of us.

I’m a big opponent of certain types of warning labels… I’m sorry but if you have a 5 gallon pail of paint open and you don’t know you need to watch your toddler so it doesn’t fall in and drown, maybe, just maybe the world is better without more of your geans in it. I know I’m cruel, but we have become a society that doesn’t take responsibility for ourselves and our choices and it makes me sick.

Missa

 

[Frank Browne]

Yes. Laws like that are aimed at the lowest common denominator, sucking in the responsible along with the irresponsible.

 

[Witmo]

I don't think we should legislate the dumb out of people. This flight done correctly with good judgment can be accomplished safely. I don't believe in restricting the freedoms of everyone based on the stupidity of some people. Let the stupid people kill themselves; it will make it better for the rest of us.

I’m a big opponent of certain types of warning labels… I’m sorry but if you have a 5 gallon pail of paint open and you don’t know you need to watch your toddler so it doesn’t fall in and drown, maybe, just maybe the world is better without more of your geans in it. I know I’m cruel, but we have become a society that doesn’t take responsibility for ourselves and our choices and it makes me sick.

Missa

I feel the same about this incident as if someone announced that they were going to have their thirteen-year-old set the record for the youngest crosscountry eighteen wheel semi-truck driver in the country--stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

[gkainz]

I feel the same about this incident as if someone announced that they were going to have their thirteen-year-old set the record for the youngest crosscountry eighteen wheel semi-truck driver in the country--stupid, stupid, stupid.

My grandad had similar thoughts and comments about a contemporary of his from Little Falls, MN quite some number of years ago when this young man proposed something that the general public thought was "stupid, stupid, stupid" ...

That schoolboy chum, as gramps recalled "Crazy Charlie", was none other than Charles Lindberg.

And now you know, as Paul Harvey says, the 'rest of the story'.

 

[Anthony]

My grandad had similar thoughts and comments about a contemporary of his from Little Falls, MN quite some number of years ago when this young man proposed something that the general public thought was "stupid, stupid, stupid" ...

That schoolboy chum, as gramps recalled "Crazy Charlie", was none other than Charles Lindberg.

And now you know, as Paul Harvey says, the 'rest of the story'.

Ha! That's funny Greg. The big difference, however, was the Lindbergh was actually a licensed and experienced pilot.

 

[Dean]

I know I’m cruel, but we have become a society that doesn’t take responsibility for ourselves and our choices and it makes me sick.

Missa

Like McDonalds having to put warning labels on Coffee that its "HOT" and it may burn your dumb a$$ if you spill it on you or drink it to fast!

 

[Missa]

I feel the same about this incident as if someone announced that they were going to have their thirteen-year-old set the record for the youngest crosscountry eighteen wheel semi-truck driver in the country--stupid, stupid, stupid.

Semi-truck, one set of controls... light aircraft, two sets of controls with a CFI in the right seat. She wasn't old enought to solo so she had an instructor with her, what's the diffrence between letting her fly like that around the local area and letting her fly like that across the country? NOTHING!

The CFI was stupid for flying in degrading weather when she was too young to have developed good judgment (that's why we don't let 7yr olds have a licence) and the parents were stupid for leting her in the plane with a CFI who would let her fly in weather like that. Don't penilise the rest of the population for their poor judgment.

Missa

 

[gismo]

I agree with Dave's (Krall) comments.

Given that kids like Jessica are unlikely to have acquired enough judgement and domain knowledge by the time they are likely to attempt a record flight, I see little point in such endeavors. IMO it was really all about fame and publicity and to some extent more for her parents (who paid the ultimate price) than Jessica herself. You might just as well set a record for the longest cross country flown by an autopilot because that's what Jessica was trained to be.

This law isn't perfect as there are no exceptions for a properly trained and qualified young pilot who simply needs someone else along to meet the FAR PIC requirements, assuming such a person materializes at some point in the future.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Given that kids like Jessica are unlikely to have acquired enough judgement and domain knowledge by the time they are likely to attempt a record flight, I see little point in such endeavors. IMO it was really all about fame and publicity and to some extent more for her parents (who paid the ultimate price) than Jessica herself. You might just as well set a record for the longest cross country flown by an autopilot because that's what Jessica was trained to be.

This law isn't perfect as there are no exceptions for a properly trained and qualified young pilot who simply needs someone else along to meet the FAR PIC requirements, assuming such a person materializes at some point in the future.

Let them do that kind of stuff in ultralights.
i.e. "Longest flight by a youngster and a pilot keeping an eye on, and being back up for the youngster manipulating the controls"
BFD

 

[Witmo]

Semi-truck, one set of controls... light aircraft, two sets of controls with a CFI in the right seat. She wasn't old enought to solo so she had an instructor with her, what's the diffrence between letting her fly like that around the local area and letting her fly like that across the country? NOTHING!

The CFI was stupid for flying in degrading weather when she was too young to have developed good judgment (that's why we don't let 7yr olds have a licence) and the parents were stupid for leting her in the plane with a CFI who would let her fly in weather like that. Don't penilise the rest of the population for their poor judgment.

Missa

Would it make it all right if we added a steering wheel and brake pedals to the semi on the passenger side-- it's still stupid and I certainly wouldn't feel safe on the same highway. Would it be okay if I was alone in a huge empty parking lot and I let the kid drive around it for a few minutes with me with him in the cab, maybe. Making a well publicized record attempt is different than taking up a Young Eagle and letting them do gentle turns, climbs and descents in perfect weather. The media pressure and a CFI stupid enough to succumb to it cost an aspiring pilot her life. Just who is being penilised? I'd say the kid. Personnally I'm in favor of laws that protect those too young, old, infirm, stupid, etc. to know better (well maybe not stupid).

 

[AdamZ]

Well Bill First my opinion of teh attempted feat.

1) It is my opinion that no 7 year old is mature enough nor do they have the appropirate thought process or decision making skills to pilot a plane around the pattern let alone across country. Therefore it is my opinion that this was not a record breaking attemp but rather a publicity stunt. I blame the CFI and the father for her death. But thats just my opinion. I seem to recall after the crash her mother glorifying her death as noble or in the pursuite of her true joy. MY opinon this poor little girl was a pawn for the abitions of adults.

With regard to the Law:

2) We do not need laws to protect us from ourselves ( Lawyer here) we may need laws to protect us from others. So its tough to say. I don't need a law preventing me a 42yo guy from flying an Archer in to KI but perhaps a little 7 yo girl does need a law protecting her from idiot adults, I don't know just my thoughts.

IMHO the warning label thing isn't really applicable to this situation.

 

[poadeleted20]

Since the FAI wouldn't even have recognized her "record" (because she wasn't the pilot), the law was superfluous. However, it gave the politicians an opportunity to show their constituents that they were "doing something about the 'problem'" without costing us any privileges. Note that the FAA was originally under siege to create a regulation prohibiting anyone but a licensed pilot or an over-16 trainee under CFI tutelage from touching the controls. AOPA managed to defuse the original demands into a law which had essentially no effect. I'm OK with that.

 

[fgcason]

That schoolboy chum, as gramps recalled "Crazy Charlie", was none other than Charles Lindberg.

Crazy Charlie succeeded and is a hero in aviation history for all time because of it. If he failed he would have just been Crazy Charlie Fish Food like many others of the day that that Darwin took care of. IMO Jessica, or more to the point, her parents were in the same kind of hero/idiot situation. Completely different circumstances and conditions but similar at least in the end result hero/idiot summary criteria.

I think the obscure and fairly well hidden law against this kind of thing is total bunk and should be stricken from the books. Growing up I did many such things, many were not anywhere near as safe as a simple long XC but we made it through ok. It was great fun and built character and confidence. The difference is that we did those things for ourselves and the responsible individuals knew the limits of what we could do safely and stayed within those limits. I think doing things out of the ordinary and on the edge is good for you. This kind of thing is reasonably safe as long as everyone keeps thinking rationally. If they want to start thinking stupid, that's called evolution.

My take on the whole Jessica Dubroff fiasco: It was nothing more than a media stunt to grab instant fame and not a whole lot, if anything, more. The media supplied the plot hype, 10 ring circus, dynamite, wires and detonator. The parents put all the pieces together and picked the exact location and time. The CFI dropped the banana that he's supposed to hold onto at all times no matter what and instead of picking it up again, he shoved the detonator handle down just like the parents told him to do. The kid was just a breathing glorified passenger autopilot that was along for the ride who might as well have been under the cargo straps in the back. The parents and CFI got what they deserved - that's very brutal but true if you think about it for a moment. Media got the self created circus they wanted and was not entitled to. The young aviators of the future have one less fun thing they can do in life. The rest of us are left holding the scapegoat bag for all time to come. That's my take on it anyway.

IMNSHO: The new law against this type of thing is just another idget sign that the powers that be are using to legislate fun out of life. You're not going to get out of life alive so you might as well have some fun while you're here even if it kills you on occasion.

 

[poadeleted20]

IMO Jessica, or more to the point, her parents were in the same kind of hero/idiot situation. Completely different circumstances and conditions but similar at least in the end result hero/idiot summary criteria.

Given that neither Jessica Dubroff nor her parents had the final say on whether to take off or not that day, the only person to whom this label could be given is the PIC of that airplane, who wasn't in the running for any official records. In fact, as mentioned above, neither was Jessica Dubroff nor her parents.

 

[SkyHog]

Since the FAI wouldn't even have recognized her "record" (because she wasn't the pilot), the law was superfluous. However, it gave the politicians an opportunity to show their constituents that they were "doing something about the 'problem'" without costing us any privileges. Note that the FAA was originally under siege to create a regulation prohibiting anyone but a licensed pilot or an over-16 trainee under CFI tutelage from touching the controls. AOPA managed to defuse the original demands into a law which had essentially no effect. I'm OK with that.

Maybe I'm reading the law wrong, Ron, but it appears to me that if I, as a pilot, let one of my friends, a non-pilot, who happens to be 14, fly my plane to set a record of some sort or engage in some kind of competition, then I would lose my license.

Thats how it reads to me at least.

 

[tom.]

I was flying in Colorado when this accident happened. I was amazed how some of my pilot friends took off with thunderstorms approaching. I never had the guts. I think the root cause of this accident was the decision to take off into that weather. As I recall that storm had hail and some serious wind. Sometimes we had huge storms out there, isolated, but followed by really nice flying weather.

Both my kids started flying (with an instructor and in nice weather) when they were quite young, and the older one just soloed at 16. I think it's safe; I worry more about them driving.

 

[ejensen]

I remember that day well. I was in the middle of my private and had a flight scheduled to CYS that morning. I cancelled without even talking to my instructor. Isolated TS we learn to deal with but that day was not isolated.

It wasn't Jessica's accident. It was the CFI/PIC that took off overload in an underpowered aircraft toward an approching major TS. As the accident investigation showed, he was flying at the crash. A Cardinal in those conditions is right on the edge of its limits.

 

[GaryO]

2) We do not need laws to protect us from ourselves ( Lawyer here) we may need laws to protect us from others. So its tough to say. I don't need a law preventing me a 42yo guy from flying an Archer in to KI but perhaps a little 7 yo girl does need a law protecting her from idiot adults, I don't know just my thoughts.

I agree. This was really about two adults - the parent and the CFI - exploiting a child in order to claim their 15 minutes of fame. And in the process they neglected to look after the childs welfare. Instead they risked (and sacrificed) her life in pursuit of a bit of glory.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

It wasn't Jessica's accident. It was the CFI/PIC that took off overload in an underpowered aircraft toward an approching major TS. As the accident investigation showed, he was flying at the crash. A Cardinal in those conditions is right on the edge of its limits.

And it is already on the "wrong side" of the edge of those limits.

 

[ejensen]

And it is already on the "wrong side" of the edge of those limits.

You got that right. I should have said, without the TS it was on the edge. Didn't take much to put it on the ground.

 

[Dakota Duce]

Part of the article said..

"The accident, and its associated publicity, led to Federal legislation that prohibits anyone who does not hold at least a private pilot certificate and a current medical certificate from being allowed to manipulate the controls of an aircraft during any record attempt, aeronautical competition, or aeronautical feat."

My question now is.. how does the above effect someone who is a "SP"? They don't have a "PP" cert.. and they don't need a "CM" cert. I've read articles about various categories of "LSA's" who have set "LSA" records and/or been in "LSA" competitions. So if the above is illegal, why hasn't the FAA done anything about it? Obviously I'm missing something somewhere. What is it?

Dakota Duce

"May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"

 

[poadeleted20]

Maybe I'm reading the law wrong, Ron, but it appears to me that if I, as a pilot, let one of my friends, a non-pilot, who happens to be 14, fly my plane to set a record of some sort or engage in some kind of competition, then I would lose my license.

While that is true in theory, nobody official recognizes aviation records by non-pilots while someone else is acting as PIC, and I've never heard of a flying competition that allowed non-pilots to compete while someone else is acting as PIC. So, as I said, they have essentially banned nonexistent activity, and I can live with that.

 

[poadeleted20]

"The accident, and its associated publicity, led to Federal legislation that prohibits anyone who does not hold at least a private pilot certificate and a current medical certificate from being allowed to manipulate the controls of an aircraft during any record attempt, aeronautical competition, or aeronautical feat."

My question now is.. how does the above effect someone who is a "SP"? They don't have a "PP" cert.. and they don't need a "CM" cert. I've read articles about various categories of "LSA's" who have set "LSA" records and/or been in "LSA" competitions. So if the above is illegal, why hasn't the FAA done anything about it? Obviously I'm missing something somewhere. What is it?

Well, I suppose a properly certified SP, RP, or LSP is not "being allowed to manipulate the controls" by another pilot, which was the whole point.

 

[judypilot]

Like McDonalds having to put warning labels on Coffee that its "HOT" and it may burn your dumb a$$ if you spill it on you or drink it to fast!

Or it'll burn something, anyway.

 

[DeeG]

Given that neither Jessica Dubroff nor her parents had the final say on whether to take off or not that day, ....snip.....

That may be the 'legal' truth Ron, but I'll bet that (and I wasn't there, so I don't know what was said) if Dad had voiced any concern about the weather, the CFI may have delayed the departure. But I'm taking a W.A.G. here and saying that Dad was the one eager to get going and get to that next interview. The PIC should have shown some....ahhh......fortitude and told Dad that 'now ain't a good time' to be flying.

We all know that CFI's can be put under immense pressure to bend to the student's will at times, and I'll bet that the CFI really didn't want to fly that morning, but was under the gun from Dad, and he caved. I mean, look at all the screw ups before they even left the ground! Someone was a bit apprehensive and nervous.

Dee

 

[poadeleted20]

That may be the 'legal' truth Ron, but I'll bet that (and I wasn't there, so I don't know what was said) if Dad had voiced any concern about the weather, the CFI may have delayed the departure. But I'm taking a W.A.G. here and saying that Dad was the one eager to get going and get to that next interview. The PIC should have shown some....ahhh......fortitude and told Dad that 'now ain't a good time' to be flying. We all know that CFI's can be put under immense pressure to bend to the student's will at times, and I'll bet that the CFI really didn't want to fly that morning, but was under the gun from Dad, and he caved.

I really have no idea what that CFI wanted or didn't want to do, but the PIC has "the final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight." We have to take that seriously, because the PIC is held accountable no matter what pressure was applied. It is a serious misapprehension to suggest that any pressure applied to the PIC by anyone else in any way dilutes that responsibility.