10 years from now, this story will be funny
- Thread starter dreaming89
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BobThePilot
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Bob
So the taking off aircraft is not flying during the first second that it leaves the ground? Is that not considering part of "taking off"?
ebykowsky
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goalstop
Wingtip vortices are created when a wing is producing lift, not when a plane is flying. Wings can (and do) produce lift when the plane isn't off the ground.
Captain
Final Approach
Covered.
MAKG1
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If you can't land in a 172 prior to the jet's rotation point (when it is still on the ground!), you need some practice with a CFI. A low-altitude 172 short field landing is under 800 feet roll.
Aeric
Line Up and Wait
That's what I got out of the story.
That's the only way he could have ended up "10 miles" out after completing the 360.
We were referring not to the OP's 360 in that part of the discussion. The situation is everything made out to be when linked to the correct reference.
Aviatrix
Pre-takeoff checklist
He says he would have done a 360 around 2 mile final if it was uncontrolled. I don't know why he trusted tower this time but not on the downwind for spacing.
That statement is what worries me the most.
ScottK
Pre-takeoff checklist
I'm not sure what your issue is with being given commands. They aren't there to boss you around. Their job is about air safety and the instructions they give are with that end goal.
I trained at a semi busy Class D airport. They knew by our tail numbers who the students were likely to be and did a nice job of "helping" us out. My suggestion would be to go take a tower tour and meet these people. Maybe putting a face to a name (at least at your home field) would change your attitude about talking to them.
And if you're unsure about something, don't be afraid to ask them. Like I said, they are there to help.
And I just got my first "Line up and Wait" about a month ago at BVI.
ifconfig
Pre-takeoff checklist
Skylane81E
Final Approach
I think there will always be a degree of discomfort when you go off on your own, but now you know what you should practice with your CFI.
I am working on my tailwheel endorsement now and I think sometimes we forget that the CFI is working for us and not the other way around! I try so hard to make him happy and I have to remind myself that I am a student and if I could do everything perfectly, I wouldn't need a CFI.
Also remember, this is not a race. CFIs do get paid-- and by you-- and most are just happy being in the air.
Sorry you are feeling discouraged, but learning is not always an upward curve. There are usually bumps along the way.
Hi Tiffany, good to see you post!
ifconfig
Pre-takeoff checklist
OP doesn't like talking to ATC. Well, they're speaking English and if they use 'technical jargon' you should learn what they mean (find and read the Pilot/Controller Glossary, for starters). In the meantime, ask them what they mean, and they'll help you especially if you explain you're a student. Sure, you may get flustered, but there's no logical reason for it. Speak to ATC, they're there to help.
Wow, you suck.
Yep... I'm not a cheerleader that's for sure. When someone presents themselves as a danger to themselves, I say so. I have buried more friends in aviation than I have fingers on my hands over the last 20 some years. Aviation is very unforgiving.
He also doesn't like being corrected, nor does he like anyone anywhere in his midst. He doesn't like anything that is not exactly the way he wants it and it flusters him into making poor decisions when it happens.
JimNtexas
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Jim - In Texas!
I strongly suggest you go to Radio Shack and buy an $80 radio scanner that picks up the aircraft band. Go to a busy controlled airport with a lawn chair and a cooler, find a place with a nice view, and just watch the fun.
As you see planes in the air and ground, try to anticipate what they are going to say before they say it.
If you hear something confusing, make a note of it and ask your CFI about it.
This is a fun, cheap, and painless way to learn controlled airport procedures.
Another thing that would help is to visit the tower. That's harder than it used to be, but it's worth the effort to try and make it happen. If you can just become a fly on the wall in the tower for an hour you'll really gain a lot of knowledge and appreciation for what flying looks like on that side of the glass.
Most of all, don't fret about this. Every single pilot since Orville has hit bumps in the road of learning to fly.
Every. Single. One. Of. Us.
As you see planes in the air and ground, try to anticipate what they are going to say before they say it.
If you hear something confusing, make a note of it and ask your CFI about it.
This is a fun, cheap, and painless way to learn controlled airport procedures.
Another thing that would help is to visit the tower. That's harder than it used to be, but it's worth the effort to try and make it happen. If you can just become a fly on the wall in the tower for an hour you'll really gain a lot of knowledge and appreciation for what flying looks like on that side of the glass.
Most of all, don't fret about this. Every single pilot since Orville has hit bumps in the road of learning to fly.
Every. Single. One. Of. Us.
pilot_dude
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In the future, do NOT perform a maneuver in the pattern without discussing with ATC unless doing so would create an unsafe condition. The 360 may very well have upset the apple cart which is why you were allowed to extend downwind indefinitely.
asgcpa
En-Route
After I came back to aviation, I started my son down the path at KPWK which can be somewhat busy and is controlled during the day. This past summer, he had an internship and wanting him to continue to take lessons for the month of his internship, I paid for lessons at KUMP which does not have a tower. I figured the experience would be good for him to see both sides of the fence.
asgcpa
En-Route
Note to OP. What helped me somewhat is to get some communications CDs and listened to various examples. It helped me get comfortable with radio work and what possibly to expect - although nothing is a substitute for real life experience.
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
Good advice.
Until I could see what the controllers see I was unsure of what they really wanted. Their job is to keep planes from swapping paint. Period. They are not there to grade you or cause you anxiety. They want you to be safe.
Aeric
Line Up and Wait
Having a backup transceiver is always a good idea, so purchase one now and do the lawnchair/cooler thing.
As for towered vs. non-towered, I'd rather land at a towered airport any day, busy or not. I like being told what to do and being watched. However, that ONLY applies to flying.
danhagan
En-Route
Mine did. Didn't charge for ground and gave homework (written) in addition to the normal required reading pre-solo and pre-solo Class C. On first solo to Class C, he reiterated that tower might give "make right 270 for traffic" near base turn (left traffic) and that's exactly what I got.
On solo (C-152), his door opened after he jumped out (which it often had when he was on board) at about 400 AGL.
For as much time as Ben has into it, I can easily see where Henning is coming from ...
Becky
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Becky
My unease with flying centers largely around this issue and the engine failure at low altitude issue. The CFI and student who died a week ago brought the latter much back to mind.
On traffic at airports, it seems to me this is going to be the very place where a lot of low-time students are going to be flying around at low altitudes in the pattern, and doing touch and goes, thus creating an environment rife with potential for tower errors, traffic-spotting difficulties, and out-of-usual scenarios that any but a much more experienced pilot will find unnerving.
I don't expect everything to go my way, but it would take me hours and hours to get comfortable with the fact that what I see isn't what the tower is telling me, or that what I can't see (traffic called out) is no threat to me in moving, real time.
I think there is a proficiency/experience/heightened awareness level (as opposed to comfort) that is gradually attained.
When I talked with my husband about this thread, his response was "Mid-air collisions are very rare." For some reason that is not comforting, but then, I am learning that really nothing about flying is comforting. You don't go into it for any sort of lulling effect, and certainly nothing can give that to a thinking, aware passenger either, except denial of realities.
On traffic at airports, it seems to me this is going to be the very place where a lot of low-time students are going to be flying around at low altitudes in the pattern, and doing touch and goes, thus creating an environment rife with potential for tower errors, traffic-spotting difficulties, and out-of-usual scenarios that any but a much more experienced pilot will find unnerving.
I don't expect everything to go my way, but it would take me hours and hours to get comfortable with the fact that what I see isn't what the tower is telling me, or that what I can't see (traffic called out) is no threat to me in moving, real time.
I think there is a proficiency/experience/heightened awareness level (as opposed to comfort) that is gradually attained.
When I talked with my husband about this thread, his response was "Mid-air collisions are very rare." For some reason that is not comforting, but then, I am learning that really nothing about flying is comforting. You don't go into it for any sort of lulling effect, and certainly nothing can give that to a thinking, aware passenger either, except denial of realities.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
Sounds like your new CFI isn't anal enough about little, but important details.
GCA319
Cleared for Takeoff
A 360 on a 1/4 mile final at low altitude? Errrr..how about a go around if the separation won't work?
ifconfig
Pre-takeoff checklist
That you did or did not bury friends doesn't thereby give you or anyone a free pass into Jerk-Off Land, but that's just me I guess.
OP sounds like he's easily flustered, but I for one am not going to throw stones. He who is without sin and all that. Which is not to say there aren't people who should not be flying.
FlylikeaGirl
Pre-Flight
Not that you need any stamp of approval from me, but this is VERY well said.
MAKG1
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I dunno. It seemed a bit harsh to me, but I take it seriously that several of the experienced members had the same reaction. That looks a lot like some history that isn't apparent in the thread.
Henning is definitely not a teddy bear, but I haven't seen him that harsh with a student on very many (and maybe no) other occasions.
Old Geek
Pattern Altitude
I've had my license for 2+ years and I learned at uncontrolled fields. I still have some trepidation when it comes to landing at towered airports. That said, I've had nothing but good experiences with tower controllers helping me out. Nothing wrong with telling them you're a student and/or unfamiliar.
saracelica
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OP- I am no Ace Pilot. Plenty of issues during my training. Eventually I got it all together. One of the things PoA forum peeps are good about is critiquing that is for sure! So thanks for sharing your story and maybe this will educate someone else coming up through the ranks. I suggest talking with your CFI and see what he thinks about your solo performance. If he says it's a learning thing then so be it. Take this as a learning experience. Just please don't be "pflemming" (If you don't know who that is do a search for it as the author)
my suggestion is go up with your instructor and do a lot of touch and go's. fly to other nearby towered airports and have them give you pattern entry instructions. go fly on a really nice day when you know the airport is going to be busy. re read up on communications as line up and wait it as standard and clear as your going to get. ibr had the priveledge on flying out of KFRG where it is common everyday to have at least 5 to 10 planes in the pattern. hope this helps!
PW_Plack
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Paul Plack
Benjamin, I'm no clinician, but this almost sounds like an anxiety disorder. Based on your telling of the story, it sounds like your first instructor was just being diligent, and was correct when expressing concern about your attitude.
I have a friend who is an instructor, and he had to surrender his credentials and recertify because one of his former students had an accident. I don't blame any instructor who errs on the side of being too picky. This guy lost months of his livelihood when the FAA felt the need to find a scapegoat.
Your instructor at the second flight school may have spared you some challenges, but you escaped that anxiety on the ground in exchange for anxiety in the air. That's a really bad idea.
Before any instructor signs you off to solo, he's supposed to have trained you in the airport environment where you'll be flying, and conducted an appropriate pre-solo test. If you got up there and didn't know what "ident" meant, your second instructor had not prepared you for the environment. Maybe three lessons prior to flying in the towered environment wasn't enough dual time to be ready. You should have had enough dual instruction to get the hang of anticipating normal instructions from ATC at that airport.
Not everyone is cut out to do this. If you can acknowledge your mistakes, quit trying to transfer blame to instructors or ATC, and be motivated to focus on the areas where you need improvement, you might actually come out sharper than someone who's a "natural." But, so far, that's not the road you're on.
That shouldn't matter...the command is issued only by the tower controller as they own the runways. They use it to expedite flow of traffic....getting one in position for take-off while another is taking off, or there is crossing traffic down field.
Shawn
En-Route
I trained at pretty busy Delta airport in a very intense program...two of the best things that my instructor taught me (other than how to land) was to listen to Live ATC for my airport in my down time and use the phrase "Student Pilot" when talking to any ATC on my solos...then "new pilot" once I got my ticket and now "unfamiliar" when going into a new airspace or airport...they are a lot more helpful!
asechrest
En-Route
Well, I guess I have a series of one-liners as suggestions:
I can tell you with absolute confidence that I was never, ever, frustrated during training. And I assure you it's not because I'm God's gift to pilots nor is it because I learned everything quickly. It took me more than three years and 75 hours. My approach was thus: flying is amazing. You're doing something that nearly all of the world population couldn't even begin to have access to. It's also challenging, and that is REALLY fun. Because when you "master" it, you know you've really done something special. And so I took it head-on, with open eyes and ears, with a permanent huge grin, and savoring each moment aloft.
You're surrounded by people who know more than you may ever know about flying. The tower controllers who you have difficulty taking commands from know more than you know about flying, even if they're not pilots. Can you be humble? Can you listen and learn -- without resentment -- from all those who offer guidance?
I think you have a decision to make.
- Be humble - lose the "I don't like commands" attitude
- Be in command - fly the plane, don't let it fly you
- Own your mistakes and endeavor to fix them - push your embarrassment aside, learn, and move on
- Be a sponge - soak up every bit of knowledge and advice that's offered, and thirst for more
- Over prepare - Be more than ready for every flight
- Think about flying when you're not flying - Keep your head in the game
I can tell you with absolute confidence that I was never, ever, frustrated during training. And I assure you it's not because I'm God's gift to pilots nor is it because I learned everything quickly. It took me more than three years and 75 hours. My approach was thus: flying is amazing. You're doing something that nearly all of the world population couldn't even begin to have access to. It's also challenging, and that is REALLY fun. Because when you "master" it, you know you've really done something special. And so I took it head-on, with open eyes and ears, with a permanent huge grin, and savoring each moment aloft.
You're surrounded by people who know more than you may ever know about flying. The tower controllers who you have difficulty taking commands from know more than you know about flying, even if they're not pilots. Can you be humble? Can you listen and learn -- without resentment -- from all those who offer guidance?
I think you have a decision to make.
When I was flying in busy airspace and struggling with radio issues, my CFI had me script everything on my kneeboard. Every thing from ATIS to Info for taxiing to parking was on a typed, folded sheet of paper. one side for departure, one for approach. All I did was fill in the blanks, then read the script as I went. found out I didn't stumble and pause on busy airwaves if I was reading it. By the second solo I was comfortable on my own. (Thanks Mike)
dreaming89
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Benjamin
Thanks everyone for your posts. It's been very inspiring to read the positive ones, and entertaining (but nothing else) to read the negative ones. I appreciate all.