Snow or ice landing

4RNB

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4RNB
I expect to pick my plane up today and fly home. Home airport 2.5 hrs away got some snow overnight, 2 hr pre approval needed at present. At noon it might be 27f, high 30. I see on cam that they have plowed. I’ve never landed on wet icy or snowy conditions. I expect my plan would be to land slow, stable/straight, not be crabbing until the last minute. Minimal gentle bilateral braking. Take turns slowly. Runways used commercially, re paved within past two years.

Am I missing anything?
 
Read the notam.

Other then almost blowing past the hold short due to skidding on ice I have never felt much difference in landing or take off with 10-20% ice on runway. Although our field is decently maintained.
 
If it is forecast to be sunny all morning, there's an extremely good chance that the runway is not going to have any snow or ice left on it as the sun will heat it up enough to melt the snow/ice. That said, assuming there's less than 30% coverage, your plan should be fine if there isn't a stiff crosswind. Just take it super slow around any turns and be gentle on the brakes. You may want to make a combined short and soft landing so it is very easy to get slowed down after touchdown.

I've never flown above 30% coverage, because the runway usually went from 30% to 90%, but people land on 100% obscured runways in Alaska so maybe someone who is more experienced with winter flying will be along to tell you I've got it all wrong. ;)
 
If it is forecast to be sunny all morning, there's an extremely good chance that the runway is not going to have any snow or ice left on it as the sun will heat it up enough to melt the snow/ice. That said, assuming there's less than 30% coverage, your plan should be fine if there isn't a stiff crosswind. Just take it super slow around any turns and be gentle on the brakes. You may want to make a combined short and soft landing so it is very easy to get slowed down after touchdown.

I've never flown above 30% coverage, because the runway usually went from 30% to 90%, but people land on 100% obscured runways in Alaska so maybe someone who is more experienced with winter flying will be along to tell you I've got it all wrong. ;)
You write as if you know where I will be landing?
 
Fun fact: Ice will sublimate off blacktop making it look like the runway is clear, but painted markings can still have ice.

Snow snot a big deal unless it is deep or there are drifts.

Ice - rudder is your friend.

Youtube has lots of videos of people landing on ice runways (Alton Bay comes to mind). Most do just fine.
 
You write as if you know where I will be landing?
No, I just used to fly in the winter in N Iowa where it got snowy and icy for about 6 months of the year and lived in MN so I'm very familiar with how and when things will or will not melt and what things you might need to do to mitigate effects of ice and snow. It might be fun to be psychic, though! :biggrin:
 
On ice or snow your rudder is your best friend. Learn to love it.
Your brakes can be your worst enemy. Just coast to a stop.
 
I have been on a icy runway or two. Just plan ahead. 30% coverage on a sunny day will probably be more wet than icy. Couple inches of snow not a problem. No need to change landing procedures, keep normal speeds, normal braking. If you feel a wheel lock up just take your foot off that brake for a second. As mentioned before avoid drifts higher than a few inches. Look for the non icy spots.

I have landed on 100% ice covered runways where the crosswind demanded landing in a crab. No big deal, I just used rudder and throttle to stay on the center line, which was covered up. On the twin differential power between engines and rudder kept me straight.

For taxiing just plan ahead, test the brakes every now and then to see how slippery it is, or isn't, plan to stop without brakes.

At those temps with any sunshine I would almost bet on just a wet runway. Don't overthink, just plan ahead.

If still worried call ahead and get runway conditions.
 
On ice or snow your rudder is your best friend. Learn to love it.
Your brakes can be your worst enemy. Just coast to a stop.
Thought for you. Your car/truck has anti lock brakes, and we all drive with the muscle memory of just tapping brakes and not locking the wheels. We have forgotten the "ancient days" of pre anti lock brakes where we didn't do that. We tapped lightly and released.

Maybe have the mindset that it is a "soft field landing". "Just Cost to a stop" posted by Shepherd seems like great advice.
 
Thought for you. Your car/truck has anti lock brakes, and we all drive with the muscle memory of just tapping brakes and not locking the wheels. We have forgotten the "ancient days" of pre anti lock brakes where we didn't do that. We tapped lightly and released.

Maybe have the mindset that it is a "soft field landing". "Just Cost to a stop" posted by Shepherd seems like great advice.
On solid ice it's OK to crab on the approach. Your wheels will be acting like casters anyway.
 
If you don’t need brakes don’t use them at all on the roll out

It’s easy to get cherries, you go from good traction to a small ice patch, the tire majorly slows rotation due to the slick ice, hit a dry patch and end up with those little quarter sized flat spots

Grooved runways tend to be a little better

And uncontrolled fields be wary of your clearance on where the plow guy piles the snow up

Remember they use sand, so avoid long static run ups else you can erode the paint on the prop, through this is mostly seen in turbo props going into beta on landing
 
As of Wednesday afternoon, it appears many LA/MS/AL/FL commercial airports are still shut down, but I have noticed a few intrepid aviators operating out of the GA airports that never close. I'm curious what their runway conditions are. Oddly many of them are RVs. One concern there is wheel pants, if they get stuffed full of snow they may keep the tires from spinning when you land.
 
many of them are RVs. One concern there is wheel pants, if they get stuffed full of snow they may keep the tires from spinning when you land.
I had that happen with an old 172. I landed on a slushy runway at Dowagiac, Michigan, and when the airplane started to slide, I took off again. I did not realize the slush had frozen inside the wheel pants. Back at my home base, Kalamazoo, the runway was clear and dry. Right after landing there was BANG and I started heading for the left edge of the runway, and then BANG and it straightened out. I was sure the fiber glass wheel pants had been damaged, but no, they survived just fine.
 
If there’s snow? Like not plowed? Be careful. Use soft field technique. In snow you won’t need brakes but you may need to add power to manage the drag. Slow it to walking speed and give yourself additional room to turn and to stop. More so if it’s slick ice.
 
How you like flying it. How was the transition? Expectations vs reality. All that stuff!
 
How you like flying it. How was the transition? Expectations vs reality. All that stuff!

Okay, where to begin...

I guess start with why this topic is veering off course, and why. Tools was one of my primary flight instructors, if you ever get a chance to learn from him, go do it. We flew into kitty Hawk First Flight airport the first time together.

I've long been interested in Vans RVs. I investigated them enough that I stopped in at Dogwood Airpark VA42, if I recall correctly, to see a plane being built. Fascinating workshop. I forget the model, but it was not a 10 or 14. He took me over to his neighbors to sit in a flying 10. Neighbor was a short Asian man (most men are short compared to me) and the fit was horrible. Real tight getting from the wing, sliding dukes of Hazard like, and everything wanted to touch my knees. The two pilots present with me killed my RV ambitions my not correcting my assumption that the seats do not move. HINT: THEY DO... The practice kits I bought stayed in their packaging on the shelf.

I continued dreaming of better planes but found the marginal improvement in a 182 not worth it. A 182 would have shaved less than an hour off my primary family visit spot. Gotta love firelight profiles to demo such things. We had fun on a demo flight in a factory new 182 though. My wife in the back seat got to see all the functionality of the gadgets, helped me get a new panel in the 172. I made the 172 the forever plane. We also sat in a Cirrus, knees hit the panel, the seats do not move.

Early spring 2024 we took a vacation to the Pacific Northwest. Maybe 10 days, rented a car. We did lots of things with nature, kind of just being dogs with our heads out the window smelling the air. We mixed in several flying things for fun also. We saw a landing helicopter at a tour place, turned around, inquired, and maybe 10 minutes later we were airborne for a 30 minute flight. Great fun, clear day. Kind of fired me up for R44 lessons, one of which I later took. We also did our best to learn more about Bushliner, a company billings itself as making a new Cyclone (Cessna 185) though better. We had installed one of their panels in the 172, the owner had an interesting back story. What we saw suggested to us that production is much further out than they suggest, we did not put down a $100,000 deposit. I hope they make it, seems to be a nice bird on paper. We also stopped in at Van's aircraft for a factory tour. We love factory tours, this one was right up there with Harley. You get right out on the floor. The factory was humming, no pending out of business sale. At the conclusion of the tour they invite you to sit in the planes. The 10 was being upgraded for a show, the 14 was a snug fit, but maybe I could fly one.

I set up a demo flight with the factory rep near Philly years before, got cancelled due to his getting Covid. I now rescheduled, we sat in both the 14 and the 10, clearly the 10 did had much more room. I could nearly lock my legs out under the pedals, my knees did not hit, the seats move fore and aft, and recline. The rep talked me through doing much of the flying, got to see the potential of the plane. Not sure I could accurately describe all we did then, but when he took over the plane to show its performance, we did some commercial maneuver that took us 90 degrees steep turn like, I had a headache afterwards.

When I got home I shopped for a plane. As in the link above, it was a bit of work. I worried about good bones, good workmanship. For example, one plane had maybe a better engine and better avionics. But the fuel tanks had been replaced due to leakage, and I could tell from photos that the paint and finish was subpar. If that was the level of quality the builder put into it, I did not want to fly it.

Things I worried about: The power. Folks warned me it was a lot of plane, a big jump up, blah blah blah. I tried my best to learn performance numbers for various phases of flight (a weakness of mine when I got to end of IFR training). I really worried about my wife's acceptance of a low wing.

More later, tired of typing
 
Sam and I did two days of flying in the mountains of NC. Day one was firehose, day two after sleeping and relaxing was pretty good. Sam did not want to release me until he was willing to let me fly his wife. Our last flights were airport loops with wx moving in, lightening included. I had to be PIC and say no more. As wx moved on, I got my signatures, planned for home 2hrs away. Taking off was interesting in that I still had to navigate mountains and clouds in an area I did not fully know. I was going to aim for a "pass", then change directions for clearer skies. Halfway to the pass the apparent noise cancelling failure drew my attention to the large air gap around my door...I was now living one of the issues with the plane, that have pilots failing to fully secure the door. The safety catch did its job, I landed, latched, took off again. This time with poor climb performance. Only after several minutes did I recognize my flaps were still full, boom did it take off like a rocket when I corrected that. 70 its climb no fun trying to beat a mountain. I am grateful the Swiss cheese grater did not catch me that day. It was fun moving about the clouds for clear air, then a straight-line home for my 2nd solo landing.

It took me a few more flights to correct an issue. My take offs especially but some on landings I was not very refined on the rudder. The rudder pedals were connected to the steerable nose wheel on the 172, not on the 10. I had issues with suddenly mashing on one side or another to correct, which created another to condition to correct back. Finally I tried just always keeping firm positive forces on each rudder pedal and the ground movements became stable. If this is not clear, picture touching someone gently to let them know you are there (my 172 method) versus guarding someone in basketball with a full hand so you get feedback when they move. Firm pressure, it made all the difference in the world.

The power of the plane was not that big of a deal. I had a souped up 172 with bigger engine, powerful exhaust and was already used to 1000 fpm climbs. Now I beat that to maybe 1500 if I want. I've jumped in speed from maybe 125 mph to maybe 200 mph at cruise altitudes. This changes my 4.5 hour trip to see family, plus a fuel stop, to 3 hours and no stops. This makes the plane a difference maker. It is also pretty darn amazing to fly down to land at 3000 fpm! The change from yoke to stick was a non issue. Gadget training is ongoing, no actual instrument flying yet. Some heading bugs got worked out so I think spring will have me filing some. I've done some RNAV work in visual conditions, will add in some ILS approaches next.

My 172 was burning about 10 GPH. This plane was 11.3 GPH flying home yesterday at 23/2300.

I updated the ELT to one approved for international travel. I was hoping to be in the Caribbean this time of the year but plane was not ready yet and my wife had a broken ankle (Months out from surgery, should walk Feb 3rd, she has dropped weight from all the exercises she is doing: Bike, ski, row in place).

I'm excited about whatever Mosaic might bring to aviation. I think more people should find their way to building, certainly more to buying already build experimental. I can perform all work on my plane, only need an AP to sign off, hands are not tied as much.

I enjoy this plane enough that I dream of my own repairmen's certificate. I might build an air conditioned shop and build my own. I've ordered the RV10 toolkit from Cleveland. EAA Norfolk sheet metal class next month, my wife is taking the class with me without prompting. I don't want to make her help on a build, but so much better if she learns from others at a class. As a seamstress, I am sure she would build a better plane than I would.

The RV 10 is fun, fast, affordable. It is much more of a time traveller.

@Tools , what else?
 
Ha! Exactly what I was wondering. You’ve come far, pilgrim!

I’m in Columbus MS now, will have to make a day trip over some time. I’ll probably bring a 180 here first, can use that to come see you!
 
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