Help with a student fumbling checklists

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Gwt9678

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Gt1009
Hello All,

Hoping some of you other CFIs in here have some recommendations for me as I’m at a bit of a loss here. I have a student transitioning into a new aircraft that is having a lot of difficulty with checklist use. For context they have about 2500 hours across a few models of aircraft so a new airplane shouldn’t be a huge issue, especially as this one is very similar to what they were flying before. What I’m seeing is that they run their checklists, but either move an incorrect switch, or move a correct switch to an incorrect position. For instance a checklist item may state “move switch A to ARM position”. They will read the checklist, look at the switch, state “move to ARM”, but then move the switch to “ON” or “OFF”. I’ve tried walking through the checklist step by step, having them teach me the checklist, and even having them take photos of the panel and prepare a PowerPoint detailing critical items for each phase of flight in hopes that something will click, but after about 20 hours I’m still seeing one or two similar mistakes per flight. Any thoughts?
 
One of these for each checklist item he messes up


960b1c9ddfaacca5c61568f06880f457.jpg
 
Are they following the checklists by rote, or do they have an understanding of what the switches are doing and why? It's easy to move switch A to arm because a checklist says so, but why am I doing it? Maybe a little more in depth system and panel knowledge accompanied by slowing down and not being pressured to rush a checklist.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Are they following the checklists by rote, or do they have an understanding of what the switches are doing and why? It's easy to move switch A to arm because a checklist says so, but why am I doing it? Maybe a little more in depth system and panel knowledge accompanied by slowing down and not being pressured to rush a checklist.
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1000% this. Can they preflight without the checklist? maybe a couple practice runs without the checklist, each followed by then going back again with the checklist to verify?

Edit: muscle memory is extremely hard to change, if there are switches in similar location but different appropriate directions it’s going to take a lot of work on both your parts.
 
Gwt9678 said:
Hello All,

Hoping some of you other CFIs in here have some recommendations for me as I’m at a bit of a loss here. I have a student transitioning into a new aircraft that is having a lot of difficulty with checklist use. For context they have about 2500 hours across a few models of aircraft so a new airplane shouldn’t be a huge issue, especially as this one is very similar to what they were flying before. What I’m seeing is that they run their checklists, but either move an incorrect switch, or move a correct switch to an incorrect position. For instance a checklist item may state “move switch A to ARM position”. They will read the checklist, look at the switch, state “move to ARM”, but then move the switch to “ON” or “OFF”. I’ve tried walking through the checklist step by step, having them teach me the checklist, and even having them take photos of the panel and prepare a PowerPoint detailing critical items for each phase of flight in hopes that something will click, but after about 20 hours I’m still seeing one or two similar mistakes per flight. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

Take the checklist away. Turn it into challenge/response. You challnege/student responds. You verify.
 
There are two methods that each have their benefits. One is to go down the list line by line and do each task. The other is to do all the items for that task and then read the List to see that you did them all.

Maybe have them try it the other way to see if they can do it. Sounds like they may not be able to, so that's where you can drill into them to READ, PERFORM, CONFIRM each item. Then move to the next item.
 
Have him read and then speak the item out loud. Having the brain process speech and then hearing it as he speaks it activates different parts of the brain. Then link speech to behavior. After speaking each item out loud, have him speak out loud on confirming his action e.g. "I am now locking the primer".

Also think of "Jobs to be Done". Break the check list into the natural breaks / groups found on the check list. Have him do each one 10 times. Then sequence the groups together.

AND.... Have him rent the plane for an hour. No flying. Just him sitting in the cockpit, practicing the check lists. No need for CFI, just him. Then he can show off his check list skills at your next lesson.

(Yeah, I got my degree in Industrial Psychology. Nerd - I know LOL)
 
Just want to say thanks for all the responses everyone! I conducted an in depth systems ground today and have broken down the checklist into small groups, analyzing each step with the student. Tomorrow I’ll be working with him again, wish me luck!
 
Make up a “flow” to accomplish checklist items from memory, for which ever checklist. If mistakes suddenly disappear, you’ve found a smoking gun.

FAA loves checklists, so do the flow, back up with checklists, see if accuracy doesn’t improve.

If they don’t, just as telling but a whole nuther problem.

Probably gonna have to stop dead in tracks and prioritize that issue. Grunt through it. Make them go SLOWLY through it. Don’t allow a single mistake, whether using checklist or flow pattern. Tons and tons of repetition.

No matter the fix, I suspect tolerance of the errors somewhere in the past have created STRONG (bad) habits. Takes longer to get rid of a bad habit than to create it.
 
WDD said:
(Yeah, I got my degree in Industrial Psychology. Nerd - I know LOL)
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I took only one psychology class in college but became very interested in the subject later. Turns out it is extremely useful in flight training. Heck, one of my IFR articles talks about “implementation intentions.” Geeky enough?
 
FWIW, I encountered something similar. I was doing transition training for a pilot moving from a 172 to a 182. One of the easiest transitions around because of the many similarities. But, again and again and again, the pilot neglected to adjust cowl flaps. Two things were going on.

His "flow" was actually a memorization of the two main items on the before landing checklist for a 172, not a true flow considering everything changeable. So his hand would go right past the cowl flap lever but never stop there.

The other was, despite repeated "you are missing something" prompts from me, he not once went to the checklist for his answer. The checklist was sitting on the glareshield in his line of sight but his habit of not using it had internalized to such a degree that it did not exist for him.

So… my first question is, “what was their checklist use in the other airplane?” If the story is similar, it means he’s acquired a habit of ignoring the checklist and that will take dedicated work to break. I’ve seen some good ideas in this thread.
 
Think it's baked in to some of the other responses, but adding a "why" might be helpful. "I'm arming this switch because it does this which is needed in this phase of flight". We are about to land, so let's put down the gear so the plane is rolling on it's tires, not its belly.

Only other thought is the state of the checklist itself. The one that came with my plane from Checkmate has a pretty detailed list for each phase of flight. An example, "advance throttle" as part of take off, really?. One thought might be to have the student create his own checklist with the really critical items on it.
 
Hang 4 said:
Only other thought is the state of the checklist itself. The one that came with my plane from Checkmate has a pretty detailed list for each phase of flight. An example, "advance throttle" as part of take off, really?. One thought might be to have the student create his own checklist with the really critical items on it.
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I have seen some "impressive" homemade checklist before, and am usually not a big fan because they become overly complicated then the student becomes overly fixated on it.

Pre-start checklist:
Close Door
Fasten seatbelt
Smooth hair
Don headset
Drink water
Open Door
Get out and remove chocks you forgot
Get back in airplane

Maybe a little sarcasm there...maybe not.
 
You forgot go back into dispatch and get key…
 
DaleB said:
No, because people know that the guy with the keys is just the pilot. The one with all the money sits in the back and doesn't worry about the keys, someone handles that for them.
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Reminds me of a story from a friend of mine that got a job flying 135. He was feeling pretty good about himself, had a sweet gig getting paid to fly a really nice airplane, thought he had his life all together. The old, wiser, pilot he was flying with noticed the grin on his face and asked him what was so great so he told him. The other pilot then pointed out, "No junior, its the guy in the back that has it figured out, you are just his driver."
 
Hang 4 said:
Only other thought is the state of the checklist itself. The one that came with my plane from Checkmate has a pretty detailed list for each phase of flight. An example, "advance throttle" as part of take off, really?. One thought might be to have the student create his own checklist with the really critical items on it.
Click to expand...
midwestpa24 said:
have seen some "impressive" homemade checklist before, and am usually not a big fan because they become overly complicated then the student becomes overly fixated on it.
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We can add a third to these two related (not opposite) statements. Checklists from flight schools tend to be written for the lowest common denominator. Overly complex and often with things completely unrelated to the operation of the airplane. "Power---Full Throttle" is nothing. My favorite rant is the checklists that includes local frequencies - as though no one is really expected to venture further than the practice area.

I have been in the personalized checklist camp since I was a student pilot. Since we never delete anything from our computers, I can still find the one I did - in WordPerfect if you can imagine! - when I first got checked out in a V-Tail Bonanza in 1998. Personalization not only allows customization of flow, but also customization of format. That shouldn't be underestimated. To put it in extremes, a checklist which appears to have been created during a paper shortage is a very different animal than one which uses one page of large print for each phase of flight. And it doesn't matter to me which one you like or if you like to write yours graphically in no particular order with cartoon images and a yellow brick road pointing to the next phases (I've seen one pretty close to that).

There are only three important things for a good checklist: (1) it does not miss anything critical from the POH version; (2) the critical items includes those from the AFMS for added or replaced equipment; and (3) You will use it.
 
Hang 4 said:
Only other thought is the state of the checklist itself. The one that came with my plane from Checkmate has a pretty detailed list for each phase of flight. An example, "advance throttle" as part of take off, really?. One thought might be to have the student create his own checklist with the really critical items on it.
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This!

That will also force him to consider why each item is on the checklist in the first place, and that should help him develop an understanding of what's important, why it's being done when, etc. that should (hopefully) make it click.
midwestpa24 said:
I have seen some "impressive" homemade checklist before, and am usually not a big fan because they become overly complicated then the student becomes overly fixated on it.

Pre-start checklist:
Close Door
Fasten seatbelt
Smooth hair
Don headset
Drink water
Open Door
Get out and remove chocks you forgot
Get back in airplane

Maybe a little sarcasm there...maybe not.
Click to expand...
Interesting. I've never seen a checklist that's worse than the factory ones!
midlifeflyer said:
There are only three important things for a good checklist: (1) it does not miss anything critical from the POH version; (2) the critical items includes those from the AFMS for added or replaced equipment; and (3) You will use it.
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I like this. And it's worth noting that #2 is frequently missed. Plenty of people will use checklists from section 3 and 4 of the AFM, and completely miss the additional equipment.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Interesting. I've never seen a checklist that's worse than the factory ones!
Click to expand...

I literally had a pilot come to me for instruction that had a small binder like a Jeppesen approach book that was his checklist and QRH for Piper Cherokee. It was thicker than the POH for the aircraft. The end of his shutdown checklist was "Call Wife", to remind him to call the wife and let her know he landed safely. He was only a PPL, but would have made a 121 check airman proud.

1736969627878.png
 
midwestpa24 said:
I literally had a pilot come to me for instruction that had a small binder like a Jeppesen approach book that was his checklist and QRH for Piper Cherokee. It was thicker than the POH for the aircraft. The end of his shutdown checklist was "Call Wife", to remind him to call the wife and let her know he landed safely. He was only a PPL, but would have made a 121 check airman proud.
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Hey, for some people that's the most important item on the checklist! :o

And I used to do a single (two sided) 8.5x11 sheet for my checklists, but I don't mind if others do something in a different format that works for them.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Plenty of people will use checklists from section 3 and 4 of the AFM, and completely miss the additional equipment.
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Story about this. We were working on a checkout quiz for out club's DA40 G1000 airplanes. For those who don't know, the stock avgas piston - and the POH - is an analog gauge aircraft with a 3-blade prop. The model sold with the G1000 in the US market has, well, a G1000 and a 2-bladed prop, along with some other mods. All of that, including everything about the G1000 is AFMS material. So even things like how the fuel gauges read are different. And there are substantial checklist differences.

Anyway, that 3-bladed prop has a 2400 max continuous RPM limitation and the checklist calls for reduction from 2700 RPM to 2400 RPM as part of the post-takeoff climb. One of the other CFIs added a question to the quiz (paraphrasing), "What should you reduce the prop to after takeoff?" They wrote an answer key with "2400 RPM."

Me: That's wrong.
They: Read the POH!
Me: Read the right part of the POH!
 
The checklist for my RV-8A (man, I miss that plane - someday I will have an -8 again and it will be my forever plane). It’s obviously intended for a pilot who knows the plane, as it’s based on flows. It mainly has killer items - things that, if not done, can lead to bent metal or people. A few things like leaning, and turning the pump off after departure or landing, are not killer items but do increase maintenance and reduce efficiency if not done, and take place during potentially high workload times.

Abnormal procedures like electrical problems are Do lists. No need for memory items or get it done in a hurry.

I used to fly with a guy who decided to emulate my DIY checklist for the 172 we had, but he wrote his own. It included items such as part of the Takeoff list was Tach - Up, Gauges -Green, Airspeed - Alive, Rotate - 55 knots. Never did see himuse the checklist for those things during the takeoff roll.
 

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