Deferred Medical Review Time (Alcohol Related)

[Oren Mason]

Hello All,
I have held a first class medical since 2016. I'll try to make a long story short.
In 2010 I was 18 years old and received 2 tickets for underaged possession of alcohol. In 2013 I received a drunk in public ticket.
The ticket was so simple I just paid the fine and forgot about it.
I disclosed the possession of alcohol on (I think) all my MedExpress forms, but honestly forgot about the DIP.
Im a full time pro pilot now, but this year the FAA decided to defer my medical for the 2 possession of All charges, also I made sure to disclose the DIP ticket this year. But I had not in previous years.

I stopped drinking 5 years ago for personal reasons. My driving record is clean. The charges are so old the police reports don't exist anymore.

At first the AME guaranteed me a quick turn around because he spoke to regional, but then regional looked a little deeper and sent it to OKC. Basically im in the stack now and there is no more "quick turn around" from regional.

Ive got 3 alcohol related things on the record, non driving related, 10 and 14 years old, yes they happened and I can answer for them.

I sent in all my paperwork on 10/21/24. Ive called OKC and they have no response for when I'll get a review.

MedExpress has my status as Action Required "Exam Date 10/17/24"
10/21/24 FAA requested more info, and I got it in the next day through the AME.
AOPA says it could take months.
AME said it could be soon.
FAA guy said "They might request a HIMS Eval" but saidI should not proactively get one unless they ask for one.

Im wondering if I should start looking for other jobs in the mean time, not knowing if this will drag out.

 

[bbchien]

The AME guaranteed you? Are you freaking kidding me?
You should be peeing in the cup so you have 6 months negative before you go to the HIMS psychiatrist.
3 documented alcohol events is the automatic defintiion of alcohol dependency from part 67.

This is going to take some time....and your AME is not being pro-active (Maybe he doesn't know any better).

B

 

[Half Fast]

Im wondering if I should start looking for other jobs in the mean time, not knowing if this will drag out.

Well, that's a financial question and it comes down to how long your money will hold out, but were I you I'd at least start looking for another AME.

 

[ORE]

The AME guaranteed you? Are you freaking kidding me?
You should be peeing in the cup so you have 6 months negative before you go to the HIMS psychiatrist.
3 documented alcohol events is the automatic defintiion of alcohol dependnecy from part 67.

This is going to take some time....and your AME is not being pro-active (Maybe he doesn't know any better).

B

Thanks for the reply.

I’m happy to be pro active. I just haven’t been advised so to so. Do you recommend I look at talking to another AME? Start selecting an alcohol testing place?
Respectfully all of that seems rather absurd as the charges are SO old and I do not consume alcohol at all, zero.

But I will do what I gotta do.

At the moment I have no plan other than to wait. Sounds like I need a better plan.

 

[Oren Mason]

Well, that's a financial question and it comes down to how long your money will hold out, but were I you I'd at least start looking for another AME.

Agreed. It's a devastating thing, and not knowing if I have a month or 6 months throws off any plans I can make.

 

[Oren Mason]

The AME guaranteed you? Are you freaking kidding me?
You should be peeing in the cup so you have 6 months negative before you go to the HIMS psychiatrist.
3 documented alcohol events is the automatic defintiion of alcohol dependnecy from part 67.

This is going to take some time....and your AME is not being pro-active (Maybe he doesn't know any better).

B

AME initially recommended I go to a HIMS AME.
he then said regional told him that's a bad idea, and only go If im asked.

 

[bbchien]

Go find a HIMS AME and get started. do't get the eval just get his adivse and start PEEING IN THE CUP. You can only win by adequlately documenting your sobirety. There is no downside.
"Hope, and Change" is not a strategy.

 

[mryan75]

Respectfully all of that seems rather absurd as the charges are SO old and I do not consume alcohol at all, zero.

Says literally everyone in this position, ever.

 

[Oren Mason]

Says literally everyone in this position, ever.

fair

 

[dans2992]

Says literally everyone in this position, ever.

But he’s right. It IS absurd given the timeframes and ages involved. We on this board are desensitized to it since there are near weekly posts on the same topic, we all know how the FAA works.


Is it the law/rules? Yes, it is. That doesn’t make it any less absurd from a “reasonableness” perspective.

…and this is coming from someone who doesn’t drink at all currently.

 

[mryan75]

But he’s right. It IS absurd given the timeframes and ages involved.

Why? Caught once, 14 years ago - yep, absurd. Caught 3 times, two different types of alcohol-related events? Meh, sorry, not absurd.

 

[bbchien]

...he continued to drink in the face of negative consequences. That' the defintion of alcohol dependency, albeit asserted (not substantiated) to be dry and known to be untreated. Time to start substantiating assertions, eh? .....they aren't going to trust the subject of the application, are they?

 

[Oren Mason]

Go find a HIMS AME and get started. do't get the eval just get his adivse and start PEEING IN THE CUP. You can only win by adequlately documenting your sobirety. There is no downside.
"Hope, and Change" is not a strategy.

Thanks for the advice.

...he continued to drink in the face of negative consequences. That' the defintion of alcohol dependency, albeit asserted (not substantiated) to be dry and known to be untreated. Time to start substantiating assertions, eh? .....they aren't going to trust the subject of the application, are they?

Correct. Im simply here to seek advice and council. I have a family to support. Making a point about FAA policy isn't my goal.

 

[Oren Mason]

...he continued to drink in the face of negative consequences. That' the defintion of alcohol dependency, albeit asserted (not substantiated) to be dry and known to be untreated. Time to start substantiating assertions, eh? .....they aren't going to trust the subject of the application, are they?

Im assuming PEE IN CUP is my best start? Obviously treatment for 10 year old misdemeanors with 5 years stated sobriety will not require a substance abuse treatment plan (Birds, AA).
My AME said not to "start a process that will make this take longer when they have not requested it" But im fine will P in Cup and anything I can do to show good faith.

 

[jbarrass]

But he’s right. It IS absurd given the timeframes and ages involved. We on this board are desensitized to it since there are near weekly posts on the same topic, we all know how the FAA works.


Is it the law/rules? Yes, it is. That doesn’t make it any less absurd from a “reasonableness” perspective.

…and this is coming from someone who doesn’t drink at all currently.

I agree, but to be clear, it's not the Law or Rules. It's a policy decision by CAMI.

 

[Jon Wilder]

As @bbchien stated, get with a HIMS AME and get going with this. Get set up on a drug/alcohol monitoring plan. The HIMS AME will probably set you up with Choice Lab Inc to do a 10-panel w/EtG test at a frequency of no less than 14 tests within a 12 month period (the HIMS AME can increase the frequency if he wishes). I would also start attending peer support group activities minimum twice weekly. Birds Of A Feather is one such group that is geared toward pilots.

Birds Of A Feather Int'l

www.boaf.org

I would also engage with an aftercare counselor who specializes in treating drug/alcohol abuse cases.

 

[Oren Mason]

As @bbchien stated, get with a HIMS AME and get going with this. Get set up on a drug/alcohol monitoring plan. The HIMS AME will probably set you up with Choice Lab Inc to do a 10-panel w/EtG test at a frequency of no less than 14 tests within a 12 month period (the HIMS AME can increase the frequency if he wishes). I would also start attending peer support group activities minimum twice weekly. Birds Of A Feather is one such group that is geared toward pilots.

Birds Of A Feather Int'l

www.boaf.org

I would also engage with an aftercare counselor who specializes in treating drug/alcohol abuse cases.

would that be assuming I could get a special issuance with random screenings? or assuming I’m looking at 12 months before any issuance?

Going to AA or Birds or a peer support group is not an option for me, as I’m 5 years from any alcohol for personal reasons not clinical. My record has been clean since that DIP ticket 10 years ago.

Screenings I can see as I’m sure FAA needs to see that I’m truthful.

 

[Jon Wilder]

would that be assuming I could get a special issuance with random screenings? or assuming I’m looking at 12 months before any issuance?

Going to AA or Birds or a peer support group is not an option for me, as I’m 5 years from any alcohol for personal reasons not clinical. My record has been clean since that DIP ticket 10 years ago.

Screenings I can see as I’m sure FAA needs to see that I’m truthful.

Anyone can go to peer support group. Many people in peer support groups are there because that's what keeps them away from alcohol. So there are many people who attend peer support groups who haven't drank in years. They are also very accommodating to those who are there for administrative reasons. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

And they're free.

Where you may run into the issue is finding an aftercare counselor because of the 5 years (most won't take you if you've been sober for longer than 12 months). You may have to call around to different addiction counseling service providers and explain to them your situation because if you do get the HIMS special issuance, the FAA is going to require this (they may actually require group aftercare).

It's very rare that the FAA doesn't grant a HIMS special issuance to those who can demonstrate 100% compliance with the HIMS program. When they do, your Special Issuance Authorization Letter will more than likely list the very requirements I mentioned in my previous post.

 

[Oren Mason]

Anyone can go to peer support group. Many people in peer support groups are there because that's what keeps them away from alcohol. So there are many people who attend peer support groups who haven't drank in years. They are also very accommodating to those who are there for administrative reasons. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

And they're free.

Where you may run into the issue is finding an aftercare counselor because of the 5 years (most won't take you if you've been sober for longer than 12 months). You may have to call around to different addiction counseling service providers and explain to them your situation because if you do get the HIMS special issuance, the FAA is going to require this (they may actually require group aftercare).

It's very rare that the FAA doesn't grant a HIMS special issuance to those who can demonstrate 100% compliance with the HIMS program. When they do, your Special Issuance Authorization Letter will more than likely list the very requirements I mentioned in my previous post.

Anyone can go to peer support group. Many people in peer support groups are there because that's what keeps them away from alcohol. So there are many people who attend peer support groups who haven't drank in years. They are also very accommodating to those who are there for administrative reasons. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking.

And they're free.

Where you may run into the issue is finding an aftercare counselor because of the 5 years (most won't take you if you've been sober for longer than 12 months). You may have to call around to different addiction counseling service providers and explain to them your situation because if you do get the HIMS special issuance, the FAA is going to require this (they may actually require group aftercare).

It's very rare that the FAA doesn't grant a HIMS special issuance to those who can demonstrate 100% compliance with the HIMS program. When they do, your Special Issuance Authorization Letter will more than likely list the very requirements I mentioned in my previous post.

I’m sorry for so many questions I just want to be clear on your advice.

Are you saying I could start a HIMS drug/alcohol testing program without the psychological eval. With anticipation of a special issuance that lets me continue to fly while also complying with the HIMS recommendations?

For example I get back from the FAA that I’ll need a HIMS, and I say, great I’ve already started! And in that case I may be eligible for a special issuance?

Or

Start a HIMS case and when that’s complete - 6-12 months later, I could fly again.

 

[wellknow]

go to hims ame and start montioring with him overseeing it. i think u will need min six months negative plus time for the faa to process the application

 

[Jon Wilder]

I’m sorry for so many questions I just want to be clear on your advice.

Are you saying I could start a HIMS drug/alcohol testing program without the psychological eval. With anticipation of a special issuance that lets me continue to fly while also complying with the HIMS recommendations?

For example I get back from the FAA that I’ll need a HIMS, and I say, great I’ve already started! And in that case I may be eligible for a special issuance?

Or

Start a HIMS case and when that’s complete - 6-12 months later, I could fly again.

You absolutely can! When I had to do my HIMS psych evaluation, the psych required me to be on the random testing and to complete 4 months of testing before he would book me an appointment.

It's in your best interest to get going on all of this right away.

BTW...your peer support group activities must be logged. Print up a signature sheet so that each meeting, you can have someone sign that you attended the meeting. I used this one -

https://www.aacle.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/AA-Attendance-Sheet.pdf

I wish I could tell you different, but the FAA doesn't seem to care how old your offenses are (mine were from 15+ years ago). They're going to treat you like you just got the offenses, and if you're unwilling to admit that you're an alcoholic, they're going to send you to "re-education" (i.e. intensive outpatient/group aftercare) until you do. So there are one of two ways that you can handle this. (a) Admit that you're an alcoholic (even if you feel that you are not...this is where it's acceptable to lie) and admit it freely, even to the HIMS psych, and be willing to take accountability for your actions, or (b) stand your ground and prove that you're not. Method (b) will take longer, will require more money, and an attorney, and there's no guarantee of success.

 

[KeepWatch]

The bottleneck from the timeline standpoint is going to be the alcohol testing. Everything else (AA meetings, counseling) is likely to be doable in pretty short order. So as has been said a few times already, setup an appointment with a HIMS AME and get started.

 

[ORE]

Standard issuance first class medical issued. 2 months and zero treatment required. Obviously someone in OKC has common sense and decency.

 

[KeepWatch]

Glad you made it through!

 

[bbchien]

Amen!

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Standard issuance first class medical issued. 2 months and zero treatment required. Obviously someone in OKC has common sense and decency.

So happy for you!! Who’s YOUR AME/HIMS AME??!!

How do we reconcile the below and your experience?

The AME guaranteed you? Are you freaking kidding me?
You should be peeing in the cup so you have 6 months negative before you go to the HIMS psychiatrist.
3 documented alcohol events is the automatic defintiion of alcohol dependency from part 67.

This is going to take some time....and your AME is not being pro-active (Maybe he doesn't know any better).

B

 

[bbchien]

It's all in the details which are not avaialable here, which is why, for your exact questions, you need your HIMS AME.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

It's all in the details which are not avaialable here, which is why, for your exact questions, you need your HIMS AME.

Hello All,
I have held a first class medical since 2016. I'll try to make a long story short.
In 2010 I was 18 years old and received 2 tickets for underaged possession of alcohol. In 2013 I received a drunk in public ticket.
The ticket was so simple I just paid the fine and forgot about it.
I disclosed the possession of alcohol on (I think) all my MedExpress forms, but honestly forgot about the DIP.
Im a full time pro pilot now, but this year the FAA decided to defer my medical for the 2 possession of All charges, also I made sure to disclose the DIP ticket this year. But I had not in previous years.

I stopped drinking 5 years ago for personal reasons. My driving record is clean. The charges are so old the police reports don't exist anymore.

At first the AME guaranteed me a quick turn around because he spoke to regional, but then regional looked a little deeper and sent it to OKC. Basically im in the stack now and there is no more "quick turn around" from regional.

Ive got 3 alcohol related things on the record, non driving related, 10 and 14 years old, yes they happened and I can answer for them.

I sent in all my paperwork on 10/21/24. Ive called OKC and they have no response for when I'll get a review.

MedExpress has my status as Action Required "Exam Date 10/17/24"
10/21/24 FAA requested more info, and I got it in the next day through the AME.
AOPA says it could take months.
AME said it could be soon.
FAA guy said "They might request a HIMS Eval" but saidI should not proactively get one unless they ask for one.

Im wondering if I should start looking for other jobs in the mean time, not knowing if this will drag out.

This was a pretty thorough/detailed opening post, followed by insulting his AME. Had he gone the route many suggested here, he’d be over a year into the FAA crap before likely getting a SI.

The lesson here is this poster's AME didn’t buy into the fear mongering or passing off/deferring for the sake of doing so for cleary a case that wasn’t needing to be.

It suggests to me that many AME are deferring/egnaging HIMS when they don’t need to and reason for 2nd AME opinions or professional opinions in general…which of course the FAA doesn’t “reasonably” allow once they put their stamp on it.

 

[bbchien]

Not really. the point is the moment you know it's going to be an issue, to "spread" cover all the options, so the pilot doesn't end up with "serial delays" and serial demands. Those items you can't know on a webboard. in the case of this OP, we don't know the BACs. But an assertion of 5 years of sobriety is just an assertion, in the eyes of the FAA. Moving to subtantiate that during the wait is a very very "makes sense" move.

Which is why I have commented, for your situation you need to ask YOUR HIMS AME who knows the details.

I'm happy for Orem - there may not have been any BAC in any of his three events depending on his state of residence at the time. In which case the agency only has "pattern of behavior" But there's no way to know that from this website.

I am focused on minimal delay. Using HIMS resources doens't mean HIMS. You are confused on that point and continue to be. Try not to be a "crusader without essential understanding".

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

Not really. the point is the moment you know it's going to be an issue, to "spread" cover all the options, so the pilot doesn't end up with "serial delays" and serial demands. Those items you can't know on a webboard. in the case of this OP, we don't know the BACs. But an assertion of 5 years of sobriety is just an assertion, in the eyes of the FAA. Moving to subtantiate that during the wait is a very very "makes sense" move.

Which is why I have commented, for your situation you need to ask YOUR HIMS AME who knows the details.

I'm happy for Orem - there may not have been any BAC in any of his three events depending on his state of residence at the time. In which case the agency only has "pattern of behavior" But there's no way to know that from this website.

I am focused on minimal delay. Using HIMS resources doens't mean HIMS. You are confused on that point and continue to be. Try not to be a "crusader without essential understanding".

In this instance, the suggested feedback to “minimize delay” was poor advice. Just reading the below replies. Thank God the applicant got good advice from his AME and their relationship with the regional.

Feedback was calling the OP’s AME basically incompetent, saying OP is in denial and has definition of alcohol dependence.

My point is his AME took a reasonable approach on the front end, not saying “you need to be deferred and do a HIMS process.” As many here obviously believe.

More AMEs should take this OP’s AME’s approach.

The AME guaranteed you? Are you freaking kidding me?
You should be peeing in the cup so you have 6 months negative before you go to the HIMS psychiatrist.
3 documented alcohol events is the automatic defintiion of alcohol dependency from part 67.

This is going to take some time....and your AME is not being pro-active (Maybe he doesn't know any better).

B

Go find a HIMS AME and get started. do't get the eval just get his adivse and start PEEING IN THE CUP. You can only win by adequlately documenting your sobirety. There is no downside.
"Hope, and Change" is not a strategy.

Says literally everyone in this position, ever.

Why? Caught once, 14 years ago - yep, absurd. Caught 3 times, two different types of alcohol-related events? Meh, sorry, not absurd.

...he continued to drink in the face of negative consequences. That' the defintion of alcohol dependency, albeit asserted (not substantiated) to be dry and known to be untreated. Time to start substantiating assertions, eh? .....they aren't going to trust the subject of the application, are they?

 

[mryan75]

In this instance, the suggested feedback to “minimize delay” was poor advice. Just reading the below replies. Thank God the applicant got good advice from his AME and their relationship with the regional.

Feedback was calling the OP’s AME basically incompetent, saying OP is in denial and has definition of alcohol dependence.

My point is his AME took a reasonable approach on the front end, not saying “you need to be deferred and do a HIMS process.” As many here obviously believe.

More AMEs should take this OP’s AME’s approach.

What I find most interesting is that a case that directly contradicts your negative opinion of the FAA process will not change your opinion of it for the better.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

What I find most interesting is that a case that directly contradicts your negative opinion of the FAA process will not change your opinion of it for the better.

No, that’s the exact wrong interpretation. The fact that the AME did NOT think this was a HIMS case, did not treat it as such, but rather used their brain and professional experience, and likely history, with the OP lead to the right and reasonable determination.

Based upon your opinion, Dr B’s and many on this forum, the OP shouldn’t be near the controls of an airplane until the OP is “reeducated” on their condition.

Again, thank God more reasonable heads prevailed.

 

[mryan75]

No, that’s the exact wrong interpretation. The fact that the AME did NOT think this was a HIMS case, did not treat it as such, but rather used their brain and professional experience, and likely history, with the OP lead to the right and reasonable determination.

That’s not an answer to what I wrote, or am I now to believe you the FAA’s aeromedical division is perfectly reasonable?

Based upon your opinion, Dr B’s and many on this forum, the OP shouldn’t be near the controls of an airplane until the OP is “reeducated” on their condition.

Strawman. Complete and total strawman.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

That’s not an answer to what I wrote, or am I now to believe you the FAA’s aeromedical division is perfectly reasonable?

Strawman. Complete and total strawman.

You don’t understand cause and effect or the point that I was responding to, or both.

The OP didn’t go through the HIMS “FAA Process”(effect) because their AME did the right thing (cause). The AME evaluated the specific case, determined it was a nothing burger and didn’t push a likely 18 month process onto the OP. Had the AME recommended proactively going through HIMS, as many suggested on this chain, the outcome would have been different.

“Strawman” is an easy “cop out” reply when you don’t have an appropriate reply, or don’t understand the basis of the topic.

There are 2 different issues here, so try and keep up.

1. The issue with AME’s being overly agreeable or conservative on what’s being deferred/HIMS worthy and why.
2. The manner and timing in which the FAA handles such deferrals/HIMS.

The OP avoided 2. because the OP’s AME didn’t fall into the trap of 1.