KSMO / Vector stupidity

iamtheari

iamtheari

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As mentioned in my prior thread about my trip to Hollywood last June, when we were doing a run-up before departing Santa Monica, the tower told us that something had apparently fallen off of our plane and was being dragged behind us, so we taxied back to the tie-down and looked around. A police officer approached us and apparently someone preflighting another plane on the ramp had reported this anomaly. It turns out that they were seeing the retractable step on our plane. So we did a hot start and departed.

Later on, Vector sent an invoice for two departures, 8 minutes apart. I emailed the address on the invoice next to "Email questions to" to explain the situation and request a corrected invoice. I never heard back other than the auto-response that says they will answer my question within 1 business day. In December, they sent a statement for my past-due invoice. I again wrote an email about the erroneous invoice and explained that I won't pay the wrong one, but would be glad to pay a corrected one if they issue it.

It's my understanding that Vector runs their scam at KSMO and KTEB. Anywhere else to avoid?
 
Several and adding more. Last month I tried to get a list of airports from them, and they will not give out the list. Below was the unhelpful reply.

Hello,

Thank you for contacting Vector. As a private company, we do not publicize our client list. However, any airports to whom we provide service will list that on the airport’s direct website. In addition, most airports have signs posted regarding landing fees billed on behalf of the airport by Vector PLANEPASS.

Regards,

Kara Schroeder | PLANEPASS® Customer Service Supervisor
Vector Airport Systems | www.vector-us.com
kara@vector-us.com | 888-588-0028 x106 (US)

To view your account or pay online please visit the PLANEPASS® Payment Portal.
​
From: <reply-to+1802c2561c66@crm.wix.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2023 2:00 PM
Subject: [Vector US] Contact - new submission

 
Message Details:
Name:
Email:
Phone: -
Message: Where can I find a list of airports that you manage landing fees for? Got suprised at KACT and KLRD with landing fees.
 
RYY will bill you a landing fee after like 9pm through plane pass. Ask me how I know…
 
Plano Pilot said:
However, any airports to whom we provide service will list that on the airport’s direct website.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that. I found it on the Santa Monica website, buried under a few links, and confirmed it's a landing fee, so even if I had departed twice within 8 minutes I didn't land in between the departures. I'll have my emails handy in case they do something stupid like mail me a court summons. I know more lawyers in Philadelphia (their payment address) than they do.
 
Sign up for a Plane Pass. I am sure they'll share their list of airports.
 
Well, they got back to me this time and sent a corrected invoice. All the same, I will probably try not to do business with them again.
 
iamtheari said:
Well, they got back to me this time and sent a corrected invoice. All the same, I will probably try not to do business with them again.
Click to expand...

A choice they make impossible by not disclosing their operating locations.
 
schmookeeg said:
A choice they make impossible by not disclosing their operating locations.
Click to expand...
Based on their statement that they are identified on every participating airport's website, you could manually crawl airport websites before you fly to see if their name shows up. So ... not technically "impossible." Just obnoxiously tedious.
 
Easier to just call all 19,000 airport managers and ask I'd think. Most of those websites are terribad. :)
 
This issue needs to be addressed by AOPA, but of course they are busy flying their planes and having fun with their $50M annual budget.
 
Maybe the practice of forcing people into a financial obligation without prior notice is something that a class-action suit could solve.
 
KTOA (Torrance) will soon be using Vector for collecting landing fees.
 
iamtheari said:
As mentioned in my prior thread about my trip to Hollywood last June, when we were doing a run-up before departing Santa Monica, the tower told us that something had apparently fallen off of our plane and was being dragged behind us, so we taxied back to the tie-down and looked around. A police officer approached us and apparently someone preflighting another plane on the ramp had reported this anomaly. It turns out that they were seeing the retractable step on our plane. So we did a hot start and departed.

Later on, Vector sent an invoice for two departures, 8 minutes apart. I emailed the address on the invoice next to "Email questions to" to explain the situation and request a corrected invoice. I never heard back other than the auto-response that says they will answer my question within 1 business day. In December, they sent a statement for my past-due invoice. I again wrote an email about the erroneous invoice and explained that I won't pay the wrong one, but would be glad to pay a corrected one if they issue it.

It's my understanding that Vector runs their scam at KSMO and KTEB. Anywhere else to avoid?
Click to expand...
So there’s some company called Vector? After seeing the Title of the thread I was all spooled up to get into an all kinds of Controllers Vectoring pilots rules n regulations discussion. As it turns out it’s just a pound sand, I ain’t ‘payin, your move’, thang.
 
Do they actually do anything to collect? Would they put a lien on your airplane? I would tell them to stuff it. I am getting an invoice for landing fees 18 months after I flew in. I dont think they can collect.
 
luvflyin said:
So there’s some company called Vector? After seeing the Title of the thread I was all spooled up to get into an all kinds of Controllers Vectoring pilots rules n regulations discussion. As it turns out it’s just a pound sand, I ain’t ‘payin, your move’, thang.
Click to expand...
Good point, sorry for the confusing title. If my coffee inspires a better one, I'll update it. Meanwhile, yes, it's a company that apparently uses some kind of automation (ADS-B?) and the FAA aircraft registry to send bills for landing fees. And they managed to count my having started the engine and transponder twice that day as two departures.

Getonit said:
Do they actually do anything to collect? Would they put a lien on your airplane? I would tell them to stuff it. I am getting an invoice for landing fees 18 months after I flew in. I dont think they can collect.
Click to expand...
State law governs liens, but my limited survey has not come across any states that allow a lien to be placed on an aircraft for unpaid landing fees that have not been reduced to a court judgment. But court judgments are liens against all your property in every state as far as I know, and collection companies are great at buying false debts and turning them into real judgments, so in this instance, once they revised my invoice, I paid off the risk of them becoming a greater thorn in my side than a piece of mail.
 
iamtheari said:
Good point, sorry for the confusing title. If my coffee inspires a better one, I'll update it. Meanwhile, yes, it's a company that apparently uses some kind of automation (ADS-B?) and the FAA aircraft registry to send bills for landing fees. And they managed to count my having started the engine and transponder twice that day as two departures.


State law governs liens, but my limited survey has not come across any states that allow a lien to be placed on an aircraft for unpaid landing fees that have not been reduced to a court judgment. But court judgments are liens against all your property in every state as far as I know, and collection companies are great at buying false debts and turning them into real judgments, so in this instance, once they revised my invoice, I paid off the risk of them becoming a greater thorn in my side than a piece of mail.
Click to expand...
Nah, no need to change it. I googled ‘list of airports that have vector billing.’ Couldn’t find that but there were a lot of hits on airports that do.
 
Getonit said:
Do they actually do anything to collect? Would they put a lien on your airplane?
Click to expand...
Airplane: Podunk tower, I have lost my engine(s) and need to land now. We are declaring triple dog* emergency.!!

Tower: Sorry buddy, you still owe us for the last 3 landing fees. Good luck...

I am thinking any non-payment would be between airport management and airplane owner.



*Triple dog emergency... all engine(s) failed, wings falling off and passengers have containers that hold more than 3 ounces of liquid in their carry on luggage...
 
MountainDude said:
This issue needs to be addressed by AOPA, but of course they are busy flying their planes and having fun with their $50M annual budget.
Click to expand...
It looks like they got into it a couple of months ago. See here.

I just took a late-night tour de rural airport in central FL a couple nights ago, landing at KCHN and X06. Disturbingly, both airports appear to have recently installed this thing called "Virtower." I stopped inside the FBOs, and on big TV screens this Virtower app was running that showed my tail number and the exact runway and time of my arrival. I wondered about the purpose of this, so I did a little digging. Apparently, for $500/month, Virtower will install their systems on your airfield. They are also happy to share the departure and arrival information of all aircraft who use the field with Vector so that Vector can mail you a bill for landing/departure/use fees. I was shocked and disturbed that several airports around Florida are implementing this system with the intent to start charging a landing fee of ~$3/1000 lb gross weight. One airport has gone so far as to say they are implementing the program "defensively" to deter traffic from using their field in the event everyone else but them starts charging fees.

I have the following concerns:

1. Is this not a direct violation of FAA regs for a lot of these publicly-funded fields?
2. Is this not in contravention with the intent of the ADS-B system?
3. Could this pose a safety risk at uncontrolled fields, as pilots will have a financial motivation to turn off their transponders when operating at these airports?
4. Would these fees actually be legally enforceable, and if so, under what statute?

I feel like a fool. I am the guy who has always touted the safety benefits conferred by coupling a proficient pilot with a modern avionics suite, the dangers of NORDO, and the enhanced situational awareness provided by the ADS-B mandate.
 
I have had controllers tell me something is hanging down several times at different airports and it was my retractable step.
 
traumamed said:
It looks like they got into it a couple of months ago. See here.
Click to expand...
As is typical for AOPA, they are "saying" things, not "doing" things.

Here are the two mentions of AOPA in the article:
"AOPA is considering legislative action to make sure ADS-B data is used solely for its intended purpose."
"Imposing new landing fees at public, not-for-profit airports, intended to deter operations that provide the lifeline for these airports, seems illogical and will ultimately have safety consequences for pilots, and may violate federal grant assurances. Moreover, there may be additional legal issues with how these fees are being set, implemented, and collected,” said AOPA Southern Regional Manager Stacey Heaton."
 
traumamed said:
It looks like they got into it a couple of months ago. See here.

I just took a late-night tour de rural airport in central FL a couple nights ago, landing at KCHN and X06. Disturbingly, both airports appear to have recently installed this thing called "Virtower." I stopped inside the FBOs, and on big TV screens this Virtower app was running that showed my tail number and the exact runway and time of my arrival. I wondered about the purpose of this, so I did a little digging. Apparently, for $500/month, Virtower will install their systems on your airfield. They are also happy to share the departure and arrival information of all aircraft who use the field with Vector so that Vector can mail you a bill for landing/departure/use fees. I was shocked and disturbed that several airports around Florida are implementing this system with the intent to start charging a landing fee of ~$3/1000 lb gross weight. One airport has gone so far as to say they are implementing the program "defensively" to deter traffic from using their field in the event everyone else but them starts charging fees.

I have the following concerns:

1. Is this not a direct violation of FAA regs for a lot of these publicly-funded fields?
2. Is this not in contravention with the intent of the ADS-B system?
3. Could this pose a safety risk at uncontrolled fields, as pilots will have a financial motivation to turn off their transponders when operating at these airports?
4. Would these fees actually be legally enforceable, and if so, under what statute?

I feel like a fool. I am the guy who has always touted the safety benefits conferred by coupling a proficient pilot with a modern avionics suite, the dangers of NORDO, and the enhanced situational awareness provided by the ADS-B mandate.
Click to expand...
i would not be too concerned with x06. shelley has worked tirelessly for the last few years trying to increase traffic there. she has done a great job running that airport. i will however, ask her directly whats up next time i stop in for tacos on tuesday.
 
MountainDude said:
As is typical for AOPA, they are "saying" things, not "doing" things.
Click to expand...
What, if anything, can AOPA do beyond saying things? They are a lobbying organization. Their role is to loudly and vigorously advocate for the collective GA interest, but I am not aware of them having any direct power over anything. I got a chuckle out of the line from that article where they said they are "considering legislative action." Does AOPA have a seat in Congress now?
 
traumamed said:
What, if anything, can AOPA do beyond saying things? They are a lobbying organization. Their role is to loudly and vigorously advocate for the collective GA interest, but I am not aware of them having any direct power over anything. I got a chuckle out of the line from that article where they said they are "considering legislative action." Does AOPA have a seat in Congress now?
Click to expand...
They can do a lot, like they did for basic med.
But it's easier and more fun to spend $50M per year on fun flying and events (and some on a bunch of PR).
 
Virtower is a help for managers when they are asking for funding. They can show how much traffic they’re getting (hopefully more than last time they were funded) and justify infrastructure improvements, plus attract on-field businesses.
 
Maybe this can help.. Looks like my two local airports (KOXR and KCMA) are using Plane Pass. I wonder how this is going to work for flight instruction as both have become very busy with this.

Based on the search results, the following airports currently use Vector Airport Systems for landing fees:
  1. Brownsville South Padre Island International Airport (KBRO)
    3
  2. Dallas Love Field Airport (DAL)
    5
  3. East Hampton Airport (HTO)
    5
  4. Sonoma County Airport (STS)
    1
    5
  5. Aspen-Pitkin County Airport (ASE)
    5
  6. Texarkana Regional Airport (TXK)
    5
  7. SBD International Airport (SBD)
    5
  8. Santa Monica Airport (KSMO)
    1
  9. Truckee Tahoe Airport (TRK)
    1
Additionally, the search results mention several other airports that use Vector's PlanePass system:
  1. Allegheny County Airport (AGC)
  2. Napa County Airport (APC)
  3. Westover Metropolitan Airport (BAF)
  4. Igor I. Sikorsky Memorial Airport (BDR)
  5. Laurence G. Hanscom Field (BED)
  6. Boeing Field/King County International Airport (BFI)
  7. W.K. Kellogg Airport (BTL)
  8. Camarillo Airport (CMA)
  9. Coeur d'Alene Airport (COE)
  10. Half Moon Bay Airport (HAF)
  11. Francis S. Gabreski Airport (HWV)
  12. Oxnard Airport (OXR)
  13. Cobb County International Airport (RYY)
  14. San Carlos Airport (SQL)
    2
 
Looks like Vector's new offering is navigation fees... Will we now be charged for traversing an airport airspace?

"PLANEPASS Overflight by Vector Airport Systems is a proven, technology-driven service that helps governments by maximizing their revenue from airspace navigation fees and other aircraft operating fees."
 
Add MAF and MDD to the Vector list. Maybe MDD will use the money to get rid of the weeds growing through the cracks on 7/25.

I did some research on the fees at MAF and MDD. It is for aircraft with max landing weight over 30,000lbs and is $2.10 per 1,000 lbs.
 
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Gross. That’s really all I have to add. Coming soon to a field near me, no doubt.
 
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