Does this operation require a commercial certificate?

Greg Bockelman

Greg Bockelman

Touchdown! Greaser!
PoA Supporter
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
11,205
Location
Lone Jack, MO
Display Name
Display name:
Greg Bockelman
I belong to a glider club in which I am one of the tow pilots. We are entering the winter season where there is no glider flying. Our director of maintenance would like to see the tow plane fly at least an hour or so each month between now and spring. The club will furnish fuel and oil. The pilot gets free flight time. Is this an operation that requires a CPL?

Since the club will furnish the fuel, our DoM is of the opinion that a Commercial Certificate and a current 2nd Class medical is required since the pilot is not providing the pro-rata share of the operating cost.

My opinion is that since the pilot is a member of the club that requirement doesn’t apply.

So, who’s right?
 
You can make a good case either way. (Pro-rata is irrelevant).

You are getting free flight time in exchange for providing a service. That equals compensation. There is a silly old Chief Counsel letter that says the solution for "flight time compensation" is simply to not log the time.

Towing a glider with someone in it only requires a private certificate (61.69 & 61.113(g)) and the private pilot may receive compensation. On this point, you might refer your director of maintenance to the 2010 Soaring Society interpretation. One could say that if a private pilot can tow a glider with a pilot in it, how can flying a tow plane without a glider be a problem?

I guess one could also make the argument that flying an airplane for essentially maintenance purposes is "incidental" to the business of a glider operation (just as test flights are incidental to the business of being a mechanic), so members are OK to be compensated.

The membership argument is based on some interpretations excepting flying clubs from such things as 100 hour inspections on the theory that the member "owns" the airplane and therefore it's not supplied by the instructor. Even that is the subject of ifs, and or buts (does the club control who may instruct? Is it an equity or nonequity club?), it's probably useless for anything beyond it's stated conditions.

Take your pick :D. I won't share my conclusion.
 
Our club policy with flying the tow plane in a situation like that: the club owns the plane, our tow pilots were all club members, so tow pilots are part owners, and owners can fly their own planes.
 
who flys the plane when it needs maintenance? These sound like maintenance flights....
 
midlifeflyer said:
You can make a good case either way. (Pro-rata is irrelevant).

You are getting free flight time in exchange for providing a service. That equals compensation. There is a silly old Chief Counsel letter that says the solution for "flight time compensation" is simply to not log the time.
Click to expand...

What if he was to rent the plane for a $1.00 per hour?
 
If Members *pay* to be in the club and as part of those payments, get an opportunity to fly these flights...well, you can see my thinking this is the exact opposite of compensation. You are paying to be able to do it.
 
Ask your insurance guy.
 
Lindberg said:
I don't believe "providing a service" is the standard, is it?
Click to expand...
“Compensation” regardless of the very broad use of it by the FAA, pretty much by definition means an exchange of value. Can you think of an example where that is not the case?

Do you think it’s a violation if a rich relative or friend of the family pays for someone's flight training so they can become an airline pilot some day?
 
Last edited:
Zeldman said:
Just hook up the glider to the tow plane, start the takeoff run and before the glider leaves the ground, drop the glider. Continue with maintenance flight...
Click to expand...
I’d take it a step further and do simulated tows for proficiency.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I belong to a glider club in which I am one of the tow pilots. We are entering the winter season where there is no glider flying. Our director of maintenance would like to see the tow plane fly at least an hour or so each month between now and spring. The club will furnish fuel and oil. The pilot gets free flight time. Is this an operation that requires a CPL?

Since the club will furnish the fuel, our DoM is of the opinion that a Commercial Certificate and a current 2nd Class medical is required since the pilot is not providing the pro-rata share of the operating cost.

My opinion is that since the pilot is a member of the club that requirement doesn’t apply.

So, who’s right?
Click to expand...
In our club if one of the planes needs to be flown somewhere for maintenance or upgrades, whichever member that flies it doesn’t pay. We’ve never considered that compensation and we’ve got a couple of lawyers in the club management.
 
midlifeflyer said:
“Compensation” regardless of the very broad use of it by the FAA, pretty much by definition means an exchange of value. Can you think of an example where that is not the case?

Do you think it’s a violation if a rich relative or friend of the family pays for someone's flight training so they can become an airline pilot some day?
Click to expand...
I'm not questioning compensation. What's the FAR that arguably requires a commercial certificate for this operation? Is it based on "providing a service"? That's my question.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Our director of maintenance would like to see the tow plane fly at least an hour or so each month between now and spring. ... Is this an operation that requires a CPL?
Click to expand...
Nah, it's a gift. What's the difference if the giver gets a warm heart in return or warm cylinders?
 
Lindberg said:
I'm not questioning compensation. What's the FAR that arguably requires a commercial certificate for this operation? Is it based on "providing a service"? That's my question.
Click to expand...
Its based on flying an aircraft for compensation or hire. (Emphasis mine)

§ 61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.​

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
Click to expand...
 
You are being compensated, free flight time, to fly the plane, but honestly I have never heard of the FAA attempting to enforce this on a member of a non-profit club flying a club plane.
 
the FAA themselves have said they cannot list all variations of everything, everywhere at all times. having someone fly a plane for the fun of it sounds reasonable, don't look further into it. have the guy put fuel in it or something if it really bothers you.

how different is it then flying your buddies plane when he's away?
 
Last edited:
They don't do pattern tows? Down at 5C1, even in the winter there'd be times when we'd take a glider up to 1000' and drop them off, they'd land, we'd land, rinse and repeat. If the towplane happened to fly for another 45 minutes, big deal.
 
Run through the checklist and procedures of an actual glider tow, only without the glider attached. Then chalk it up to maintaining proficiency on behalf of the club. I’m sure the last thing they want is to have an issue with the first tow of next season.

As the tow pilot, would you normally be on the hook (pardon the obvious pun) for the operating costs of operating the powered portion of the operation? If you would, then it is hard to argue that you aren’t receiving compensation. However, if you normally fly the powered unit for free while providing that tow, then it would stand to reason that continuing to operate the same mechanism (sans glider) on behalf of the club for safety and proficiency would not be compensated either.

Simplified: “My normal cost to fly this aircraft on behalf of the club is $0 because it is incidental to glider flying, so I am receiving the same $0 to maintain proficiency through the off season (also incidental to glider flying) therefore not being compensated.”
 
Lindberg said:
I'm not questioning compensation. What's the FAR that arguably requires a commercial certificate for this operation? Is it based on "providing a service"? That's my question.
Click to expand...
I guess I don’t understand your question since I thought “exchange of value” answered it.

When 61.113 says “Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (h) of this section, no person who holds a private pilot certificate may… for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command of an aircraft,” they are talking about the pilot receiving something of value in exchange for something of value given by the pilot. What would that be other than the pilot providing a service?
 
The mx guy might be thinking: pilot is being asked to provide a service (fly the plane an hour each month). In exchange he’s being provided logged hours and fuel and other operating expenses, and that’s compensation.

Our club always figured that club member dues paid for fuel and operating expenses and were part owners of the towplane. So flying the plane to another airport for an annual was a case of a club pilot flying his own plane and it didn’t require a commercial. There were plenty of times someone would take the towplane up for reasons other than towing.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Look at the FAA’s position on fuel reimbursement or discounts for charitable flights.
Click to expand...

I don't see how the two would mix? If I have a plane that is already in a commercial operation such as a rental, etc.... how can the FAA tell me what I should rent it out for?
 
Clip4 said:
You are being compensated, free flight time, to fly the plane, but honestly I have never heard of the FAA attempting to enforce this on a member of a non-profit club flying a club plane.
Click to expand...
Seems a lot like the compensation I got for flying my parents and brothers in Dad’s airplane on vacation, to fly-in breakfasts, or to/from maintenance as a Student/Private Pilot.
 
Ventucky Red said:
I don't see how the two would mix? If I have a plane that is already in a commercial operation such as a rental, etc.... how can the FAA tell me what I should rent it out for?
Click to expand...
Aircraft rental is not a commercial flight operation. An owner can rent out an airplane to most anyone. It's what the person operating he flight does which the FAA looks at.

That fuel reimbursement - doesn't matter if we're talking sole aircraft owner, member of a co-ownership arrangement, club member, renter or thief.
 
Seems like a federal aviation regulatory change could clear up a bunch of issues if it just explicitly excluded loggable flight time as being considered a form of compensation as long as the loggable flight time is incidental to another primary purpose (i.e. maintenance flight, $100 hamburger) and otherwise doesn't meet the standard of a commercial flight operation. Not sure which congress-critter would want to take a tilt at that particular windmill, but it would allow people to build time in a reasonable manner.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
I belong to a glider club in which I am one of the tow pilots. We are entering the winter season where there is no glider flying. Our director of maintenance would like to see the tow plane fly at least an hour or so each month between now and spring. The club will furnish fuel and oil. The pilot gets free flight time. Is this an operation that requires a CPL?

Since the club will furnish the fuel, our DoM is of the opinion that a Commercial Certificate and a current 2nd Class medical is required since the pilot is not providing the pro-rata share of the operating cost.

My opinion is that since the pilot is a member of the club that requirement doesn’t apply.

So, who’s right?
Click to expand...
I think it’s too small to worry about it, but I do have a CPL and first class medical if you need help :)
 
AvNavCom said:
Seems like a federal aviation regulatory change could clear up a bunch of issues if it just explicitly excluded loggable flight time as being considered a form of compensation as long as the loggable flight time is incidental to another primary purpose (i.e. maintenance flight, $100 hamburger) and otherwise doesn't meet the standard of a commercial flight operation. Not sure which congress-critter would want to take a tilt at that particular windmill, but it would allow people to build time in a reasonable manner.
Click to expand...

You will die of old age before any of those hours are built to a meaningful level if the congress were to change this.
 
Another viewpoint? Is logging the time really a “benefit”? Aren’t you logging to prove currency IAW regulation?
 
This seems like a no brainer to me. You are flying not only to keep the plane in top shape but also to keep your skills as a tow pilot in shape. This in my view is incidental to being a tow pilot. It is a safety issue. It is all part of flying a tow plane.

Did they just let you start towing planes or did you fly the plane a little to get used to it? Isn't that the same thing?

Just fly the plane.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Aircraft rental is not a commercial flight operation. An owner can rent out an airplane to most anyone. It's what the person operating he flight does which the FAA looks at.

That fuel reimbursement - doesn't matter if we're talking sole aircraft owner, member of a co-ownership arrangement, club member, renter or thief.
Click to expand...

I see you point of the commercial operation, that is there are two, even though the club is non-profit, in my eye it is a commercial enterprise that is subject to the IRS; and then there is the commercial operation in the air which the FAA controls.. But if that person is just doing pattern work or local flying.. there shouldn't be an issue - right?
 
Ventucky Red said:
I see you point of the commercial operation, that is there are two, even though the club is non-profit, in my eye it is a commercial enterprise that is subject to the IRS; and then there is the commercial operation in the air which the FAA controls.. But if that person is just doing pattern work or local flying.. there shouldn't be an issue - right?
Click to expand...
What kind of issue? I think I lost the train of the discussion. There are probably hundreds of people who rent or lease an airplane on any given day for pattern work, local flying, and far, far more.

When the subject is the difference between private and commercial pilot privileges and private and commercial operational privileges, there not much relevance to definitions of "commercial" outside the FAA.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top