How do you get started on doing it yourself?

TimRF79

TimRF79

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Dec 10, 2017
Messages
352
Location
Houston, TX
Display Name
Display name:
Tim
It seems that avionics upgrades are very expensive with long lead times. On top of it, many times it seems the results are not perfect and owners are left to pick up the pieces.
Therefore many seem to install avionics themselves.

While I am technically adapt, I am not sure where to start learning the basics of doing your own avionics install?
And once you install, how do you work with your A&P to get the proper sign-off?
 
This may sound off the wall, but if you want to learn the basics AND do a great job, build a kit plane. Or, consider an experimental that needs a panel upgrade.

I built a kit plane and did my own panel. It’s was one of my favorite parts of the build and I got an advanced panel at a ‘bargain’ price.
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/category.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=5253


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Hang around and get to know as many mechanics as possible. See if one of them will let you work with them on your plane. Go from there.

Took me about 2 years to build a relationship with a few guys that would let me assist. My avionics guy is the latest example. I did the demo and the bench wiring under his supervision. When it came time for some of the in-plane wiring, I told him what I was uncomfortable doing. Ended up adding about $500 more to my bill cuz I told him to just take care of a few things instead of me doing them.

One more consideration - you don’t know what you don’t know. You might think replacing a wiring or a switch or fastener is something you can do (I think I can), but when the mechanic’s cert is on the line, he may want to have known if it was aviation wiring or where to source the switch or if there was a cert for that fastener. You’ll let them pretty much tell you what to buy and how to install it BEFORE you do anything, at least until they trust you.
 
Join the local EAA chapter and pick the brains of those who have installed avionics in their experimentals. Also, there's lots of good reading and Youtube videos (lots on the EAA site (https://video.eaa.org/category/videos/electrical) showing connector assembly, etc. I've attached a document that might help whet your appetite.

TimRF79 said:
It seems that avionics upgrades are very expensive with long lead times. On top of it, many times it seems the results are not perfect and owners are left to pick up the pieces.
Therefore many seem to install avionics themselves.

While I am technically adapt, I am not sure where to start learning the basics of doing your own avionics install?
And once you install, how do you work with your A&P to get the proper sign-off?
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

  • Aircraft-Wiring-Best-Practices.pdf
    2.1 MB · Views: 29
Get the install manuals and read them. Learn the schematics..its not hard or rocket science I promise. I've installed a panel mount GPS, a fuel totalizer, a trutrak autopilot, and wag aero shoulder harness all in my Cherokee. My mechanic supervised and singed off. Just study the manual before you start and I promise it's not that hard.

But remember some of the things have to be installed by a shop so not everything can you install. Oh and yeah make sure your mechanic is on board before you start. Haha
 
JohnAJohnson said:
Join the local EAA chapter and pick the brains of those who have installed avionics in their experimentals. Also, there's lots of good reading and Youtube videos (lots on the EAA site (https://video.eaa.org/category/videos/electrical) showing connector assembly, etc. I've attached a document that might help whet your appetite.
Click to expand...
Yes, a tremendous amount of good reading and YouTube vids out there. The EAA stuff is top notch. Very plane specific stuff from plane builders but not quite as much stuff on avionics work.

The PDF doc that was attached above is interesting and perhaps a case on point relative to ‘I saw it on the internet so it must be...’ That particular document was and is very controversial. I haven’t read it in a few years but it was counter argument to much of the information disseminated from a guy many of us think is the best electrical/electronic resource for owner built and maintained aircraft (OBAMs). The title of the document “...bare knuckles...” is actually a direct reference to the other guy.

When first published, the community talked and posted about it for weeks/months. There are gems in there but I’d recommend avoiding it as a general reference. It’s more of a manifesto than a guide.

Here’s the guide I would recommend that takes one from very basic electronics through small aircraft electrical systems. It’s aimed at builders but it is a very solid reference.
http://www.aeroelectric.com/Book/AEC_R12A.pdf
(I hope it’s accessible to you, not sure)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
One more consideration - you don’t know what you don’t know. You might think replacing a wiring or a switch or fastener is something you can do (I think I can), but when the mechanic’s cert is on the line, he may want to have known if it was aviation wiring or where to source the switch or if there was a cert for that fastener.
Click to expand...
Yep. I was all set to buy a Twin Comanche with a beautiful panel once. All it needed was a pre-buy and I'd fly it home. The mechanic I hired (never use the seller's mechanic) says, "See all these connectors up here behind the panel? Those are automotive. Same with the wires. Same with the red oxide primer under the paint job I saw in the wing root. And that panel is structural — somebody cut a big hole in it to line up the instruments nice and pretty." I paid him his money and rented a car instead.
 
Bill Watson said:
....The PDF doc that was attached above is interesting and perhaps a case on point relative to ‘I saw it on the internet so it must be...’ That particular document was and is very controversial. I haven’t read it in a few years but it was counter argument to much of the information disseminated from a guy many of us think is the best electrical/electronic resource for owner built and maintained aircraft (OBAMs). The title of the document “...bare knuckles...” is actually a direct reference to the other guy.

When first published, the community talked and posted about it for weeks/months. There are gems in there but I’d recommend avoiding it as a general reference. It’s more of a manifesto ....
Click to expand...

I had come across that "Best Practices" pdf a few weeks ago and looked it over while planning for an upcoming panel-mount intercom installation. I'm glad you posted...wasn't aware of it's controversial nature. Are there any specifics you can share re/ the controversy? Anything in there incorrect and/or unsafe?
 
Even if you hold an electrical engineering degree, you need to have good bench skills, being competent with a soldering iron, strippers, crimpers, etc. Don’t laugh. As an EE myself, I’ve known lots of electronic savvy folks who had no bench skills at all, and no need for them. If you can’t do quality work behind the panel, pay someone who can. Your life could be at stake.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Even if you hold an electrical engineering degree, you need to have good bench skills, being competent with a soldering iron, strippers, crimpers, etc. Don’t laugh. As an EE myself, I’ve known lots of electronic savvy folks who had no bench skills at all, and no need for them. If you can’t do quality work behind the panel, pay someone who can. Your life could be at stake.
Click to expand...

I'm the exact opposite... been soldering since I was eight years old and have pretty good bench skills and equipment, built a ton of Heathkit/Dynaco/Hafler stuff, repopulated boards completely, results better than original, blah blah blah.. but I can really only follow directions. Don't have enough knowledge of theory to effectively troubleshoot or design. Tell me what to do, and I'll do a good job. Have me figure out what to do, and I'll waste untold days struggling.
 
MuseChaser said:
I'm the exact opposite... been soldering since I was eight years old and have pretty good bench skills and equipment, built a ton of Heathkit/Dynaco/Hafler stuff, repopulated boards completely, results better than original, blah blah blah.. but I can really only follow directions. Don't have enough knowledge of theory to effectively troubleshoot or design. Tell me what to do, and I'll do a good job. Have me figure out what to do, and I'll waste untold days struggling.
Click to expand...

just watching this thread, but totally inexperienced with airplanes, but I also built projects growing up, & have no issues following diagrams, nor soldering, I do it right when building cars, or motorcycles, I order all new connectors, solder the wires on & put in with new switches, and shrink tubing, I have built many custom bikes in my younger days, & I was taught correctly by old masters, & I despise the cheap crimp connectors many in the automotive guys use, & then later complain about electrical gremlins. & a few weeks ago I was watching a video with someone building a powered parachute, he was telling his followers to use crimp connectors? I told him off for using crimp connectors. people do not realize how horrible those things are, and how bad vibration can cause an electrical issue.
 
old_biker said:
just watching this thread, but totally inexperienced with airplanes, but I also built projects growing up, & have no issues following diagrams, nor soldering, I do it right when building cars, or motorcycles, I order all new connectors, solder the wires on & put in with new switches, and shrink tubing, I have built many custom bikes in my younger days, & I was taught correctly by old masters, & I despise the cheap crimp connectors many in the automotive guys use, & then later complain about electrical gremlins. & a few weeks ago I was watching a video with someone building a powered parachute, he was telling his followers to use crimp connectors? I told him off for using crimp connectors. people do not realize how horrible those things are, and how bad vibration can cause an electrical issue.
Click to expand...
There are ‘automotive’ crimps and crimpers, and there are quality crimps, crimpers, and crimping technique. I crimp almost every connector up to 18ga. I solder the large wires simply because I don’t have the proper tools for larger stuff. There are so few of those it’s not worth it. And there are techniques for soldering the fat wires properly.

Yes, as you say, vibration is the big factor in our world. Proper crimping is up to the task though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
I prefer solder and heat shrink, depending on the connection. Crimped connections have they’re place, but use the expensive aviation type with the proper tools.
 
MuseChaser said:
I had come across that "Best Practices" pdf a few weeks ago and looked it over while planning for an upcoming panel-mount intercom installation. I'm glad you posted...wasn't aware of it's controversial nature. Are there any specifics you can share re/ the controversy? Anything in there incorrect and/or unsafe?
Click to expand...
Specifics? No, it’s been awhile since this went around - 10 years ago maybe.

Incorrect or unsafe? Not exactly.

What I do recall is the writer was an EE who believed he had a set of better approaches, techniques and principles to electrical and avionics work than anyone else. Better than the aviation industry in general and certainly better than another gentleman that had a long career in the industry but who had also been sharing his knowledge with the experimental community in a very open and critically evolving way.

The Web is a fantastic resource for DIY work in almost any area, but for me the key skill that you have to develop is to figure out is who to follow and who to ignore. That paper is more a manifesto of opinions by one smart but perhaps overly arrogant guy. There’s no way to know that just reading that paper in isolation. I’d use other resources. Manifestos are not good references.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Bill Watson said:
There are ‘automotive’ crimps and crimpers, and there are quality crimps, crimpers, and crimping technique. I crimp almost every connector up to 18ga. I solder the large wires simply because I don’t have the proper tools for larger stuff. There are so few of those it’s not worth it. And there are techniques for soldering the fat wires properly.

Yes, as you say, vibration is the big factor in our world. Proper crimping is up to the task though.
Was not aware of any, other than electricians use, I will Google aircraft type to learn, but I only knew from my training, but I even sometimes make my own battery cables with solder style ends.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...
 
I took the EAA SportAir Workshop on avionics. It’s very basic but it lays a solid groundwork to learn from. It was also great at teaching basic skills and knowing where to look for resources. After that I found an A&P who was willing to let me help, slowly I did more and more work as he figured out I knew what I was doing.
 
I think your post got a little chewed up but the crimper thing is not that big a deal.

The basic idea is not to use this:
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-KYLM...pG6IYv8fyo61r2UZlL5uN9Y1xSCCnKscaAheeEALw_wcB

But to at least use a ratcheting crimper like this:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=e...U6UALMQlr4CMAp6BAgMEAQ&biw=1024&bih=659&dpr=2

The document referenced previously shows a professional ratching crimper that runs a couple of hundred dollars. That’s an even better tool but not necessary by most accounts.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
I don't think it's fair to say that "many" do DIY avionics installs. In fact, I think that only a very small, but sometimes vocal, minority do so. Depending on what you're installing, it can range from easy-peasy to a tremendous amount of work that will make you want to just chop up the airplane before you're done.

I recently did my own avionics upgrade: I added a G5 HSI, a Garmin GTN gps, a new audio panel, a new comm and a new transponder. As an initial matter, most A&Ps don't know anything about avionics. You may find one who knows enough to be comfortable signing off on stuff, but it really is somewhat specialized work, especially building the harnesses and configuring the units. That said, all you really need is a basic understanding of how they work and the ability (and willingness) to read the damned manuals (more on this below).

I used the Approach Fast Stack hub to help with the wire harness side, which put me way ahead of the work curve. If you're thinking about a major panel overhaul, I highly, highly recommend them. Still, between removing the old stuff and installing the new stuff, I figure I had 100 man hours in the job. And I didn't even have to build the harnesses. As someone noted above, you also need to be willing and able to contort your body into unnatural and uncomfortable positions.

Also, one thing to keep in mind is that installation manuals for much of this stuff are tightly controlled. Unless you're friendly with a dealer, the manuals can be damn hard to come by. Most of the manufacturers don't make the manuals publicly available unless it's for a product that's available new "over the counter" (not dealer-install only). So if you're buying, say, a used GTN650, you need to make sure you can get your hands on (1) current installation manuals and (2) STC permission letters. Without those you can't do a truly "legal" installation.
 
Bill Watson said:
I think your post got a little chewed up but the crimper thing is not that big a deal.

The basic idea is not to use this:
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-KYLM3pNcHWF/p_120RCVRKIT/Metra-Crimp-Tool-Set.html?XVINQ=GLX&awkw=75645355465&awat=pla&awnw=g&awcr=47718527545&awdv=t&awug=9009747&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjYHpBRC4ARIsAI-3GkHct-2dXfbbD2hmaTc4FSBpG6IYv8fyo61r2UZlL5uN9Y1xSCCnKscaAheeEALw_wcB

But to at least use a ratcheting crimper like this:
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en-US&q=Pittsburgh®+Ratcheting+Crimping+Tool&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAOPgUuLVT9c3NEwzM07PKDcyTBJITUpLTTVJNE00NEpLSUwxm8HEeImFw2vnvxCes1V_OliZFrGqBmSWlBQnlRalZxxapxCUWJKckVqSmZeu4FyUmVsAYoTk5-ccYP357NXBruO_Tn1iPMC68dG5rzP_3Pk5Hcjeu-Ti9Xc_W2d5HWC9dGjp3AP7Pqx_CRT-fuX174cP1rzaDGSv2rnj7tK-rqvMB1hn_2l4vOzKm7WvgMLzXnRd2nz_5MteIPtIb8esOe_uztgDZF8786y36eSH062MAPi5SOLSAAAA&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjSuuip46HjAhUqheAKHU6UALMQlr4CMAp6BAgMEAQ&biw=1024&bih=659&dpr=2

The document referenced previously shows a professional ratching crimper that runs a couple of hundred dollars. That’s an even better tool but not necessary by most accounts.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...


thanks, never seen one of those ratcheting ones, & I guess my cell phone didn't send all my statement, lol. appreciate, ill stick with solder as best as I can other than emergencies to get home. if I ever find I need a crimper I know what to look for now
 
old_biker said:
thanks, never seen one of those ratcheting ones, & I guess my cell phone didn't send all my statement, lol. appreciate, ill stick with solder as best as I can other than emergencies to get home. if I ever find I need a crimper I know what to look for now
Click to expand...

YW. The ratcheting crimpers typically have 3 dies for the 3 most common wire size ranges. They simultaneously crimp the insulation for strain relief and the stripped portion of the wire. They are setup so that they don’t break the insulation while holding it firmly, and so they form an airtight crimped connection between the barrel of the connector and the multi strand wire. I imagine the high priced crimpers can be calibrated periodically to meet production floor requirements but the combination of the ratchet mechanism and properly sized crimping dies give you pretty consistent and reliable results.

There is a large range of splices, male and female push-on connectors, and other types of crimped terminal connectors to choose from. Everything is colored coded red, blue or yellow (pink too) based on wire size. Only the wire isn’t color coded.

The other common kind of connector is the D-sub pin for those DB9, DB15, DB25, etc plugs. Those are used in almost all avionics. It’s mainly for 20 and 22 AWG wire which is what you use for most avionics connections. These are crimped with something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/ABN-Deutsch...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=6AWNQX5RPXWS2W9SHPS1
They are easy to use and in addition to being used with those multi-pin plugs, they can be used to form the fastest, cleanest most reliable inline splice possible....but solder will always work!

(Excuse me for hijacking the post here)



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
avionics tech with 15 years experience here…. I’ve worked on everything from the CH-53E and K models to the E6-B, from Cessna 172s to B777s. My best advice is to find a good avionics tech you trust, and negotiate a price you can live with. For anyone interested, reach out to me and I will gather your info on what you have and what you want. Then I will send you a quote. I promise my quality is higher than most GA “mechs” you’ll come across. Just bc they have that A&P license doesn’t mean they know what they’re doing. Just like not every licensed pilot is competent.
 
I second working with Approach Fast Stack. Tim is a walking encyclopedia of Avionics. I've done a few harnesses with him over the years and always had a great experience.
 
Fairly certain EAA has a wiring/avionics/electrical workshop available on video and in person.

Supervised practice on is worth a pound of magic smoke.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top