Skew-T diagrams removed because blind people can’t see them

Tokirbymd said:
As Scott mentioned above, they are likely using the 508 nonsense as cover for the real reason they are shutting down- that for profit companies are scraping the data and selling the results for operational use instead of research.
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Bingo!
 
1728612659940.png1728612659940.pngLooks like NOAA updated their site- they closed access as the information was not being maintained and was not designed for operational use- which several apps were using it as. No plan for restoration of the site. They mention the data is available elsewhere- I have looked, the actual model data is available as text, but the apps available, including Sharppy are not as easy to use as the NOAA app. Unfortunate for us pilots. Hopefully someone will develop a similar app that we can use.
 
My SkewTLogPro app now crashes. After I enter an airport identifier, and before the graph is rendered, that’s when it crashes.

Windy app still renders a SkewT graph. That will be a learning curve, adjusting to using that, as it’s different.
 
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Rcmutz said:
Bingo!
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I got a response from NOAA saying it's because they don't guarantee the "accuracy, timeliness or availability" of the data and say it can't be used to ensure (flight) safety. Then the lawyers stepped in.....
 
PaulS said:
I opened my favorite weather app, EZWxbrief yesterday to look at skew t diagrams in my area because local forecasts have not been doing that good on ceiling predictions, and lo and behold I got a message saying noaa had removed them from public view because blind people can’t see them. Today the option for skew ts is completely removed as this apparently isn’t a short term issue.

Now I am all in favor for setting up skew ts so that blind pilots can see them, but it seems to me that this work could be done while allowing sighted pilots to see them until that great day arrives. But no, the NOAA management has decided that no pilot should be able to see skew ts while they figure out how to address this issue that they probably should have dealt with years ago.

While I am certainly in favor of disabled people having accommodations for things like this, shutting down access for all while the work is being done is the ultimate act of stupidity IMO.

This is part of the announcement lifted from @scottd ’s blog post on this matter:

Reaching out to the team that administers this site, they responded that...



"NOAA management has decreed that all of our web pages must be section 508 compliant (https://www.section508.gov) or they would have to be shut down to the public. We're currently working on reaching compliance. We hope we can have the page available again soon, but we don't have an ETA right now."

Edit:

The site deleted:

As mentioned in the October EZNews, the NOAA site https://rucsoundings.noaa.gov was removed from public access earlier this week. This is the site that the EZWxBrief progressive web app uses to render the Skew-T diagrams found in the Airport Wx view.
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So, here's the latest on NOAA removing access to the Skew-T forecasts. And it's not because of "...blind people can't see them." Guess not everything we read on the Internet is true these days, ah?

Anyway, the folks who maintain the rusoundings.noaa.gov skew-T chart site responded to my query confirming that the site has been "permanently retired and [will] not restored" because NOAA Research Laboratory is "prohibited from delivering any data that is used for safety of life or property."

Using NOAA skew-T chart information to facilitate Aeronautical Decision Making (ADM) (in this case as part of a self done weather briefing) to ensure safe flight falls in that category as the NOAA Research Lab does not guarantee the "accuracy, timeliness or availability" of the data. They even referenced a note somewhere on their skew-T chart page about their disclaimer and restriction of use. But who reads the fine print alllllll the way down a web page these days?

But....

I've found some useful alternate sources of Skew-T FORECASTS listed here:
1) Tropical Tidbits (My favorite: just click any where on the map to get a popup skew-t forecast for that location. There's also a place to enter an airport code in that window: https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/ana...&region=us&pkg=midRH&runtime=2022092918&fh=24

2) Nextlab Forecast from College of DuPage (similar to Tidbits but you first must click on the GFS button under the words Long Range then click on your desired "general area" then click/hold on the specific geographic location in the resulting window): https://weather.cod.edu/forecast/

3) Pivotal Weather will popup a window where you can also click on a specific geographic location: https://www.pivotalweather.com/model.php

Downside for all of these options is that:
a) The altitude is listed in constant pressure level in millibars not feet so you will have to convert (use this chart to convert: https://www.boqueteweather.com/millibars_altitude.htm)
b) These sites tend to be research sites so like the beloved NOAA site, there is no guarantee of currency, accuracy or how long the information will be provided. Their lawyers may shut those down as well.

------
Also see NOAA's full response to my query below:

From: WebMgmt Gsl - NOAA Service Account <webmgmt.gsl@noaa.gov>
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2024 1:05 PM
To: WebMgmt Gsl - NOAA Service Account <webmgmt.gsl@noaa.gov>
Subject: Recent inquiry pertaining to rucsoundings.noaa.gov

Hello,

This email is in response to your recent inquiry pertaining to rucsoundings.noaa.gov.

As stated in the 302 Redirect - the site has been permanently retired and will not be restored. As a NOAA Research Laboratory, we are prohibited from delivering any data that is used for the safety of life or property. The following disclaimer has been on the site since its inception in 2004:

Data Disclaimer / Restrictions
Please note: This is recent, research-quality data that has not been subjected to production quality control procedures. Nor has the data acquisition system been designed to be continuously-available for operational use.

We are making this available for research use, but be warned that the Global Systems Laboratory makes no guarantees as to the accuracy, timeliness or availability of this service or data provided by it. We cannot be held responsible for any circumstances resulting from its use, unavailability, or possible inaccuracy. We reserve the right to suspend or discontinue this service or portions thereof at any time.

We also reserve the right to deny access to any individual or organization that we determine is abusing this service. Examples of abuse include automated transfers resulting in excessive data requests (because it hinders others from accessing the service) and attempting to gain access to documents and host machines not intended for public use.

The National Weather Service has a mission to provide operational data to the public…and the following sites offer the data that was available on rucsoundings.noaa.gov in a different format:

The NWS operational site for viewing amdar or aircraft data is:
Public:

Restricted:

If you have never used these sites before you will need to request access to the restricted data set by filling out this form:

This is the operational system for pilots doing preflight or flight planning:

Aviation Weather Center

How can the Aviation Weather Center help you? AWC provides comprehensive user-friendly aviation weather information.
aviationweather.gov aviationweather.gov

This is the experimental site being worked by RAL:

Operational Aviation Digital Data Service (ADDS) | Research Applications Laboratory

ral.ucar.edu ral.ucar.edu
 
Yes, it appears the tool is no longer available to the public and doesn't appear to be returning anytime soon. I have reached the proverbial dead end. I have known the original developer of this tool for over 20 years and he's not happy.

What they don't understand is that the experimental ADDS site they list in the canned response isn't even a thing anymore given the new AWC website. They make it seem like it's something "new and improved." Also the AWC doesn't provide access to any Skew-T diagrams. Moreover the other sites they list are observational and not forecasts. The kicker though is that if you go to https://rapidrefresh.noaa.gov/soundings/Welcome.cgi which is also a GSL site you will see they still provide Skew-T diagrams...yes they provide a limited number of airports, but what is the difference? Why haven't they removed this page as well? Also they provide "aviation" fields from the HRRR here - https://rapidrefresh.noaa.gov/hrrr/HRRRavi. Again, if they were concerned, then why make this available but not the other? Their argument just doesn't hold water.
 
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jscott008 said:
So, here's the latest on NOAA removing access to the Skew-T forecasts. And it's not because of "...blind people can't see them." Guess not everything we read on the Internet is true these days, ah?
Click to expand...

ah, so we should believe YOUR "this is what noaa said" and not someone else's "this is what noaa said", got it, makes sense.

while I didn't personally see it, sites being shut down due to not being section 508 compliant is a real thing, I've personally seen it several times, although it's been like 18+ years since I've seen it. so I didn't for a second doubt it, and it was verified by at least 2 people. whatever the reason, looks like it's gone. JUST when I was thinking of maybe possibly looking at and learning skew-T's.
 
eman1200 said:
ah, so we should believe YOUR "this is what noaa said" and not someone else's "this is what noaa said", got it, makes sense.

while I didn't personally see it, sites being shut down due to not being section 508 compliant is a real thing, I've personally seen it several times, although it's been like 18+ years since I've seen it. so I didn't for a second doubt it, and it was verified by at least 2 people. whatever the reason, looks like it's gone. JUST when I was thinking of maybe possibly looking at and learning skew-T's.
Click to expand...
Section 508 compliance not withstanding, I’m only passing on actual correspondence I received from the NOAA Research Laboratory folks who maintained that site. If desired, I can provide an attachment of the email.

I understand the skepticism but only trying to help here. I also provided some alternative sites that folks in this group might find as a useful substitute (though not as friendly as the Skew-T forecasts we’ve been using). It’s your choice.

For me, learning skew-t’s is a game changer in doing weather briefings. Once you know how to read them, one chart presents a single comprehensive forecast picture (that includes: wind, convection, clouds, icing, turbulence, etc.) for a given place and time. For me they are a great tool that can be used to verify similar information other aviation forecasts.
 
Thanks for the followup. The other sites are nice although not as easy to use as SkewTLogPro. It looks like most remaining sites are powered by SHARPpy- a free python program. I downloaded it and it is semi-useful, but still not as adjustable as the original NOAA app. If someone could get the original NOAA java app, and modify it to use the same database SHARPpy, (and pivotalweather, tropicaltidbits, twisterdata.com, etc) use including ability to zoom in, adjust on the fly the lifted parcel point, change mB to correct for altitude in feet, etc then they would have a winner. I don't understand how SHARPpy can continue to exist using the same datasets, but NOAA insists theirs is off limits?
jscott008 said:
So, here's the latest on NOAA removing access to the Skew-T forecasts. And it's not because of "...blind people can't see them." Guess not everything we read on the Internet is true these days, ah?

Anyway, the folks who maintain the rusoundings.noaa.gov skew-T chart site responded to my query confirming that the site has been "permanently retired and [will] not restored" because NOAA Research Laboratory is "prohibited from delivering any data that is used for safety of life or property."

Using NOAA skew-T chart information to facilitate Aeronautical Decision Making (ADM) (in this case as part of a self done weather briefing) to ensure safe flight falls in that category as the NOAA Research Lab does not guarantee the "accuracy, timeliness or availability" of the data. They even referenced a note somewhere on their skew-T chart page about their disclaimer and restriction of use. But who reads the fine print alllllll the way down a web page these days?

But....

I've found some useful alternate sources of Skew-T FORECASTS listed here:
1) Tropical Tidbits (My favorite: just click any where on the map to get a popup skew-t forecast for that location. There's also a place to enter an airport code in that window: https://www.tropicaltidbits.com/ana...&region=us&pkg=midRH&runtime=2022092918&fh=24

2) Nextlab Forecast from College of DuPage (similar to Tidbits but you first must click on the GFS button under the words Long Range then click on your desired "general area" then click/hold on the specific geographic location in the resulting window): https://weather.cod.edu/forecast/

3) Pivotal Weather will popup a window where you can also click on a specific geographic location: https://www.pivotalweather.com/model.php

Downside for all of these options is that:
a) The altitude is listed in constant pressure level in millibars not feet so you will have to convert (use this chart to convert: https://www.boqueteweather.com/millibars_altitude.htm)
b) These sites tend to be research sites so like the beloved NOAA site, there is no guarantee of currency, accuracy or how long the information will be provided. Their lawyers may shut those down as well.

------
Also see NOAA's full response to my query below:

From: WebMgmt Gsl - NOAA Service Account <webmgmt.gsl@noaa.gov>
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2024 1:05 PM
To: WebMgmt Gsl - NOAA Service Account <webmgmt.gsl@noaa.gov>
Subject: Recent inquiry pertaining to rucsoundings.noaa.gov

Hello,

This email is in response to your recent inquiry pertaining to rucsoundings.noaa.gov.

As stated in the 302 Redirect - the site has been permanently retired and will not be restored. As a NOAA Research Laboratory, we are prohibited from delivering any data that is used for the safety of life or property. The following disclaimer has been on the site since its inception in 2004:

Data Disclaimer / Restrictions
Please note: This is recent, research-quality data that has not been subjected to production quality control procedures. Nor has the data acquisition system been designed to be continuously-available for operational use.

We are making this available for research use, but be warned that the Global Systems Laboratory makes no guarantees as to the accuracy, timeliness or availability of this service or data provided by it. We cannot be held responsible for any circumstances resulting from its use, unavailability, or possible inaccuracy. We reserve the right to suspend or discontinue this service or portions thereof at any time.

We also reserve the right to deny access to any individual or organization that we determine is abusing this service. Examples of abuse include automated transfers resulting in excessive data requests (because it hinders others from accessing the service) and attempting to gain access to documents and host machines not intended for public use.

The National Weather Service has a mission to provide operational data to the public…and the following sites offer the data that was available on rucsoundings.noaa.gov in a different format:

The NWS operational site for viewing amdar or aircraft data is:
Public:

Restricted:

If you have never used these sites before you will need to request access to the restricted data set by filling out this form:

This is the operational system for pilots doing preflight or flight planning:

Aviation Weather Center

How can the Aviation Weather Center help you? AWC provides comprehensive user-friendly aviation weather information.
aviationweather.gov aviationweather.gov

This is the experimental site being worked by RAL:
Click to expand...
 
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