Continental 0470 R - Cylinder Replacement Inevitable?

WDD

WDD

Final Approach
PoA Supporter
Joined
Oct 16, 2019
Messages
6,089
Location
Atlanta / Marietta
Display Name
Display name:
Vintage Snazzy (so my adult children say)
Chatting with a buddy the other day, and he mentioned that the type of engine I have, Continental 0470 R in my 182 P, will never make it to overhaul without replacing at least 2 to 3 cylinders - rings - piston sets.

“These engines just can’t make it all the way to TBO without top end work”.

What say other 0470 owners?
 
I don't know what to say, the commercial outfit I work with never have cylinder trouble with that vintage of O-470's. Maybe we just are not as smart as your buddy. We get 2400 hours out of our Cessnas on floats with those engines. Of course they are flown commercially and not private. Private operators refuse to operate their engines per Continental recommendations.
 
WDD said:
“These engines just can’t make it all the way to TBO without top end work”.
Click to expand...
FWIW: Have seen O-470s go well beyond OH recommendations even in utility ops. As mentioned just need to operate them properly and perform the right mx.
 
MountainDude said:
Can you please summarize the difference(s)?
Click to expand...
The engines are engineered to operate at 75% or more power. Run the engines at the upper range of design operating temperatures and RPMs. The valve opening and closing timing is set for +75% power. The magneto timing is set for 75% power. When operating the engine less then that it does not clean itself and the choke of the cylinders barrels are not expanded as designed.

The engineers that designed these aircraft engines did not design them to run at partial power and doing so is outside the design.
 
WDD said:
Chatting with a buddy the other day, and he mentioned that the type of engine I have, Continental 0470 R in my 182 P, will never make it to overhaul without replacing at least 2 to 3 cylinders - rings - piston sets.

“These engines just can’t make it all the way to TBO without top end work”.

What say other 0470 owners?
Click to expand...
You know, I heard a lot of people tell me that I should never run LOP.

I also had a lot of people tell me something similar to what you're saying about my IO-550 - "You'll never make it to TBO..."

Eventually I realized that the Venn diagram of the two groups above was basically a circle. I'm approaching 2400 hours on the 550 and it's running just fine being operated at 65% LOP, thankyouverymuch.

I don't listen to those people any more.

FWIW, on our club's old 182, we went 951 hours past TBO before it needed an overhaul.

As with any plane: Learn it well, fly it often, and it'll treat you well.
 
The quality of cylinders I've seen coming out of Continental or Superior recently have been junk. Until they've been reworked by a decent cylinder shop I 100% expect them to need work after a few hundred hours. The last one I sent in, the *intake* guides were somehow shot. I operate the engine pretty much by the book.
 
So…. Buy a new steel cylinder and then send it to a machine shop to be trued and honed, and new valve guides inserted?

Some grace needed for an odd question. Why not just re machine the old cylinder, assuming it’s the steel version and not chrome lined?
 
Klaus M said:
The engines are engineered to operate at 75% or more power. Run the engines at the upper range of design operating temperatures and RPMs. The valve opening and closing timing is set for +75% power. The magneto timing is set for 75% power. When operating the engine less then that it does not clean itself and the choke of the cylinders barrels are not expanded as designed.

The engineers that designed these aircraft engines did not design them to run at partial power and doing so is outside the design.
Click to expand...
So one can't fly above 7,000 msl and remain inside the design?
 
Bore scope your cylinders regularly and monitor the appearance of your valves. Burnt valves kills these cylinders. Not sure about your cylinders, but the ones on the 520 and 550's have a rotator (rotocoil) on the exhaust valve that keeps them spinning and running cooler. If the rotator fails the valves will burn.
 
I did a bore scope pre buy. A couple of cylinders showed signs of oil blow by, and sure enough I’m using too much oil, lower compressions. So maybe I do need a cylinder or so. Or redo the ones I have?

Owing an engine new to me - appreciate the help.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: WDD
WDD said:
Or redo the ones I have?
Click to expand...
Provided there's not something catastrophically wrong with the cylinder, my 1st choice is always to have the current ones reworked by a good shop. I only used J&J Air Part in TX or Gibson in OK but there are others as well.
 
Ah. So it’s not something a local machine shop that reworks engines can do?
 
WDD said:
Ah. So it’s not something a local machine shop that reworks engines can do?
Click to expand...

Depends on their capabilities. Some repairs are outside the scope of what some engine shops can or are willing to do. And depending on the shop, you may not want them touching some things.

Same thing is true for any engine machine work, aircraft or not.
 
WDD said:
So it’s not something a local machine shop that reworks engines can do?
Click to expand...
No on your 182. But even for E/AB applications unless the shop has experience specifically with aircraft engine cylinders they could easily cause an issue. Plus aircraft shops tend to have all the special equipment to pull heads from the cylinder barrel, specs to properly hone out the barrel as some are tapered, etc, etc.
 
Many Powerplant Techs are authorized to sign off the cylinder work.

However; they may not want to do that unless they witness the entire

operation. It’s possible sending jugs to folks that have to equipment,

expertise AND authorization may be fastest and most economical way to go.
 
If you need a cylinder exchange Gibson's is the place to call. They've done good work for me. Prices are cheaper to exchange than it will be for a machine shop.

Gibson Aviation in El Reno, Oklahoma

Gibson Aviation in El Reno, Oklahoma, disassembles, cleans and inspects cylinders and related parts. We are a certified repair station.
www.gibsonaviationok.com www.gibsonaviationok.com
 
WDD said:
Ah. So it’s not something a local machine shop that reworks engines can do?
Click to expand...
Aircraft engines?

FWIW, there's an FBO maintenance shop locally that I have used in the past that is capable of doing quite a bit of cylinder work. If you have an *aircraft* maintenance shop that has been around for a while and has people who know how to do it, that might be your quickest option. Otherwise, shipping them out and back only adds a couple of days and if you use a reputable shop the result should be close to good as new.
 
Speaking of engine shops, has anyone used Popular Grove? How were they for cylinder work?
 
Rcmutz said:
Speaking of engine shops, has anyone used Popular Grove? How were they for cylinder work?
Click to expand...
Yes, I've sent them 5 of my 2004 vintage ECI cylinders from my Cont O300 since 2012, the latest in 2019 but I've spoken to them in the last couple of years on the topic. They've been great for me but I'm close to them here in IL.
In the last 3 years they've pushed me towards a new Continental cylinder vs. IRAN'ing my current cylinders due to price increases on parts (and maybe labor?) for the IRAN approaching new cylinder prices.
I've not had issues with one of their IRAN'd cylinders yet. Knock on wood.
 
Rcmutz said:
Speaking of engine shops, has anyone used Popular Grove? How were they for cylinder work?
Click to expand...
Poplar Grove is excellent. My former flying club has sent several engines and cylinders there, and the work is top quality. They had done the previous overhaul on our 182's engine that went 951 hours over TBO, so we sent it back there again. No complaints whatsoever. I'll be sending my geriatric engine there when it is finally time to do so.
 
Klaus M said:
The engines are engineered to operate at 75% or more power. Run the engines at the upper range of design operating temperatures and RPMs. The valve opening and closing timing is set for +75% power. The magneto timing is set for 75% power. When operating the engine less then that it does not clean itself and the choke of the cylinders barrels are not expanded as designed.

The engineers that designed these aircraft engines did not design them to run at partial power and doing so is outside the design.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the input. That's the first time I read this. Most others are basing their engine ops on either LOP/ROP (2 different schools of thought) or absolute CHTs (some saying the lower the better; others saying to keep it around 380, which I think would be consistent with your input).
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Poplar Grove is excellent. My former flying club has sent several engines and cylinders there, and the work is top quality. They had done the previous overhaul on our 182's engine that went 951 hours over TBO, so we sent it back there again. No complaints whatsoever. I'll be sending my geriatric engine there when it is finally time to do so.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the PIREP. I have heard good things about them in the past and was curious if it was still true.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top