KLGB ILS Canceled for B737

[Kenny Taylor]

I went into KLGB IFR in a C172 for the first time a couple weeks back. Conditions were VMC, and approach had us descend over the harbor and provided vectors to final ILS 30. I reported established, grabbed the glideslope, switched to tower, and received our landing clearance. About 2-3 miles out, tower canceled our landing clearance to allow a 737 to roll onto the runway and take off. I leveled off and held my speed, assuming we'd get tossed back to approach and vectored back around.

Much to my surprise, they gave the landing clearance back about a mile out, after the 737 started rolling, with a LAHSO to boot. I was a good 1,000 feet high at that point but reasoned that between flaps and throttle, I could close the gap and make a decent landing short of our LAHSO point. And we did, touching down about 2,500 feet before that point, but if I did it again, I would probably have opted to go missed.

In hindsight, part of the problem was my not knowing the 'normal' for KLGB. I suspect it's normal for Long Beach tower to slip a scheduled flight in where they can. I didn't expect the LAHSO but had briefed the airport diagram and was ready for it. I made things more difficult for myself by leveling off.

My question to the group is this: approach had cleared me on the ILS, tower cleared me to land, rescinded that clearance, but didn't assign an altitude. Did they intend for me to continue the approach along the glideslope with the 737 on the runway? The 737 was prompt to roll out and take off, and continuing on glideslope would have worked, but I'm trying to understand what tower intended to happen.

 

[jordane93]

Continue the approach on the glide slope and wait for a landing clearance. Don’t overthink it. They didn’t tell you to go around so continue trucking down on the slope.

 

[Dave Theisen]

They cancelled your landing clearance, not your approach clearance. The intent is that the departing traffic will be clear in time and they will then reissue your landing clearance. If for some reason it gets too tight, they will then tell you to go around.

 

[luvflyin]

I went into KLGB IFR in a C172 for the first time a couple weeks back. Conditions were VMC, and approach had us descend over the harbor and provided vectors to final ILS 30. I reported established, grabbed the glideslope, switched to tower, and received our landing clearance. About 2-3 miles out, tower canceled our landing clearance to allow a 737 to roll onto the runway and take off. I leveled off and held my speed, assuming we'd get tossed back to approach and vectored back around.

Much to my surprise, they gave the landing clearance back about a mile out, after the 737 started rolling, with a LAHSO to boot. I was a good 1,000 feet high at that point but reasoned that between flaps and throttle, I could close the gap and make a decent landing short of our LAHSO point. And we did, touching down about 2,500 feet before that point, but if I did it again, I would probably have opted to go missed.

In hindsight, part of the problem was my not knowing the 'normal' for KLGB. I suspect it's normal for Long Beach tower to slip a scheduled flight in where they can. I didn't expect the LAHSO but had briefed the airport diagram and was ready for it. I made things more difficult for myself by leveling off.

My question to the group is this: approach had cleared me on the ILS, tower cleared me to land, rescinded that clearance, but didn't assign an altitude. Did they intend for me to continue the approach along the glideslope with the 737 on the runway? The 737 was prompt to roll out and take off, and continuing on glideslope would have worked, but I'm trying to understand what tower intended to happen.

Did you see where the 737 rotated? What you described was giving me the willies about wake turbulence

 

[Ventucky Red]

Did you see where the 737 rotated? What you described was giving me the willies about wake turbulence

Cleared to land three - zero, caution wake turbulence.... now it is up to the pilot - correct?

 

[texasclouds]

When in doubt, ask ATC what they mean/expect.

When uncomfortable, you are the PIC, tell them what you need/want.

 

[luvflyin]

Cleared to land three - zero, caution wake turbulence.... now it is up to the pilot - correct?

Yes.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I suspect it's normal for Long Beach tower to slip a scheduled flight in where they can.

It really has nothing to do with the fact that they were a scheduled flight. You were initially given a landing clearance because they didn’t think anyone would be ready for takeoff before your landing. They misjudged it, partially because Southwest taxis fast enough to wiggle the Mach meter. and maybe they thought you’d be faster. Who knows? But an aircraft happened to be ready, and there was adequate spacing. But you basically owned the runway with your landing clearance, so they had to rescind that to allow the departure. Then they gave you (most of) the runway back.

If they were going to cancel your approach clearance, they’d use those words “cancel approach clearance,” and give you further instructions.

 

[Larry in TN]

I disagree with the "you own the runway" approach. There is nothing in the regs, AIM, etc., to support that and the use of anticipated separation which counters it.

At many towers in the US, they can use anticipated separation and clear an airplane for takeoff while another airplane is cleared to land. It is very common for us (airlines) to be cleared to land with one, or more, arrivals still airborne in front of us or departures going out before we reach the runway.

ATC procedures can have different restrictions (on the controller) at different facilities and it different configurations. It may be that the controller is not allowed to use anticipated separation when he's working multiple runways, or some other criteria. Just this morning, at RDU, we were held short of the runway while an AAL 737 took off. Normally, we'd get a line up and wait immediately after he was issued his takeoff clearance but that controller was working all three runways, ground, and clearance delivery by themselves so they weren't authorized to use line up and wait.

Review 91.126 - 91.131. Those regs involve operating at airports in each class airspace, including the regulations applicable when there is an operating control tower. Those regs list the actual requirements for what you can, and can not do, and what requires a clearance. Knowing those makes it easier to figure out a situation that you haven't seen before.

 

[Kenny Taylor]

Thanks for all the feedback! My goal going IFR that day was gaining experience, and it certainly did that. @luvflyin I was down prior to the 737's rotation point. I don't think they gave me the "caution wake turbulence", but they may have anticipated the 737 rotating beyond the LAHSO point.

 

[luvflyin]

Thanks for all the feedback! My goal going IFR that day was gaining experience, and it certainly did that. @luvflyin I was down prior to the 737's rotation point. I don't think they gave me the "caution wake turbulence", but they may have anticipated the 737 rotating beyond the LAHSO point.

Ok. Glad to know you were paying attention.

 

[brcase]

Did you see where the 737 rotated? What you described was giving me the willies about wake turbulence

That may be why they issued the LAHSO, to make sure Wake turbulence wouldn't be an issue.

Brian

 

[Ryan F.]

I went into KLGB IFR in a C172 for the first time a couple weeks back. Conditions were VMC, and approach had us descend over the harbor and provided vectors to final ILS 30. I reported established, grabbed the glideslope, switched to tower, and received our landing clearance. About 2-3 miles out, tower canceled our landing clearance to allow a 737 to roll onto the runway and take off. I leveled off and held my speed, assuming we'd get tossed back to approach and vectored back around.

Much to my surprise, they gave the landing clearance back about a mile out, after the 737 started rolling, with a LAHSO to boot. I was a good 1,000 feet high at that point but reasoned that between flaps and throttle, I could close the gap and make a decent landing short of our LAHSO point. And we did, touching down about 2,500 feet before that point, but if I did it again, I would probably have opted to go missed.

In hindsight, part of the problem was my not knowing the 'normal' for KLGB. I suspect it's normal for Long Beach tower to slip a scheduled flight in where they can. I didn't expect the LAHSO but had briefed the airport diagram and was ready for it. I made things more difficult for myself by leveling off.

My question to the group is this: approach had cleared me on the ILS, tower cleared me to land, rescinded that clearance, but didn't assign an altitude. Did they intend for me to continue the approach along the glideslope with the 737 on the runway? The 737 was prompt to roll out and take off, and continuing on glideslope would have worked, but I'm trying to understand what tower intended to happen.

Kenny - nothing unusual happened here. You're simply becoming exposed to common operations via practical experience, so now you have a little more knowledge in the bag for next time. This is a normal event which happens all over the NAS. Nine times out of ten, a canceled landing clearance in the situation you described will result in a new landing clearance shortly thereafter. Sometimes the local controller will have time to explain the reason, sometimes not; sometimes the canceled clearance will be accompanied by a "continue," sometimes not; but as mentioned above, don't overthink it. The approach clearance wasn't canceled, so continue the approach. Good learning moment here!

 

[Ventucky Red]

That may be why they issued the LAHSO, to make sure Wake turbulence wouldn't be an issue.

Brian

KLGB has a few "Hot Spots" and intersecting active runways... LAHSO is always in affect.

 

[Ventucky Red]

Thanks for all the feedback! My goal going IFR that day was gaining experience, and it certainly did that. @luvflyin I was down prior to the 737's rotation point. I don't think they gave me the "caution wake turbulence", but they may have anticipated the 737 rotating beyond the LAHSO point.

It has been a while since I have been there, but the last time I seem to remember the LAHSO instructions to KLGB are for 26 Right - I hope the 737 was off by then.

Thanks for sharing, your learning is our learning too...

 

[kkoran]

Did they tell the B-737 to line up and wait before they cleared it to take off? They can't have an someone in line up and wait and someone cleared to land simultaneously.

 

[Larry in TN]

Did they tell the B-737 to line up and wait before they cleared it to take off? They can't have an someone in line up and wait and someone cleared to land simultaneously.

Yes, they can.

The default rule is that they can not but many facilities (towers) have procedures approved to allow it under specific conditions. All large airports do.

In LGA's case, the Line up is on one runway and the landing is on the other. Such as, departing 13, arriving 4.

Many other airports do it on the same runway. 9L at FLL, for example. Two or three airplanes on final, all cleared to land. When the first one crosses the threshold, a fourth flight is given line-up-and-wait. When the landing aircraft clears, the LUAW aircraft is cleared for takeoff.

As pilots, we don't know what specific authorizations a tower has or what conditions must be met for them to use it. For example, At FLL, when the tower controller is working both runways, I don't beleive they can use LUAW.

 

[kkoran]

Yes, they can.

The default rule is that they can not but many facilities (towers) have procedures approved to allow it under specific conditions. All large airports do.

In LGA's case, the Line up is on one runway and the landing is on the other. Such as, departing 13, arriving 4.

Many other airports do it on the same runway. 9L at FLL, for example. Two or three airplanes on final, all cleared to land. When the first one crosses the threshold, a fourth flight is given line-up-and-wait. When the landing aircraft clears, the LUAW aircraft is cleared for takeoff.

As pilots, we don't know what specific authorizations a tower has or what conditions must be met for them to use it. For example, At FLL, when the tower controller is working both runways, I don't beleive they can use LUAW.

Larry, you are right that they can at some airports, but it requires that they have ground surveillance radar (ASDE-X or ASSC), which LGB does not have.

 

[Clip4]

Yes, they can.

The default rule is that they can not but many facilities (towers) have procedures approved to allow it under specific conditions. All large airports do.

In LGA's case, the Line up is on one runway and the landing is on the other. Such as, departing 13, arriving 4.

Many other airports do it on the same runway. 9L at FLL, for example. Two or three airplanes on final, all cleared to land. When the first one crosses the threshold, a fourth flight is given line-up-and-wait. When the landing aircraft clears, the LUAW aircraft is cleared for takeoff.

As pilots, we don't know what specific authorizations a tower has or what conditions must be met for them to use it. For example, At FLL, when the tower controller is working both runways, I don't beleive they can use LUAW.

With all the incursions that have happened over the last 6 months, back to basics may be in order.

 

[ateamer]

With all the incursions that have happened over the last 6 months, back to basics may be in order.

Is the incursion rate actually up, or is it the same and just being (over)reported by the media?

 

[flyingron]

Hell, I was flying into DCA on AA, and we had our approach canceled twice. I got kind of tired of seeing 2W5 go by my window.

 

[Larry in TN]

Larry, you are right that they can at some airports, but it requires that they have ground surveillance radar (ASDE-X or ASSC), which LGB does not have.

LGA does it on intersecting runways. Normal operation. Airplane cleared to land. Another airplane cleared for takeoff and crosses the first airplane's runway when it's within about 20 seconds of reaching the threshold.

 

[unsafervguy]

LGA does it on intersecting runways. Normal operation. Airplane cleared to land. Another airplane cleared for takeoff and crosses the first airplane's runway when it's within about 20 seconds of reaching the threshold.

same for KSFO, except sometimes they have one LUAW on 1R and !L at the same time.

 

[Larry in TN]

same for KSFO, except sometimes they have one LUAW on 1R and !L at the same time.

They do that all the time, then launch them one right after the other. You go down the runways within an airplane length, or two, of each other. The 1L departure has a left turn, and the 1R departure has a right turn, both starting at 520' MSL.

 

[Ventucky Red]

They do that all the time, then launch them one right after the other. You go down the runways within an airplane length, or two, of each other. The 1L departure has a left turn, and the 1R departure has a right turn, both starting at 520' MSL.

And then there is Oakland and San Jose to contend with..