Airplane attitude when landing

LongRoadBob

LongRoadBob

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I'm sure there are many different factors that would mean differences in this, but assuming an ideal runway, no obstacles, wind still, cold day...

On final approach or coming in straight, while in normal glide path, what ideally is the attitude of the plane on the last say 100 feet coming in for landing? Is the nose parallel with the ground, slightly up or more? I'm certainly going to find out when I I am done with ground school and can start flying but the question keeps bugging me, as I feel I ought to know but am not sure. I feel like there would be a need for keeping the nose somewhat down in order to have latitude to do the final flare to finally land, but I am really uncertain.

How about on a hot humid day, with some small crosswind? Does that change the desired attitude?
 
In the last 100' you'll go from nose down to nose level to nose up.

You'll get the feel for it once you start flying.
 
As an aside...

WTF is up with this "new" trend of flight schools requiring that ground school be completed before flying? The local school does that too. There is so much of the book info that flying puts into context. Requiring that ground school be completed and the written passes before flying seems really stoopid and unproductive to me.

Plus, flying keeps people more excited about the process.
 
Thanks to you all, and yes I agree,I was surprised when I started that it was required. I'm an American doing this in Norway, and he as far as I can tell it is "normal" to do it this way. I'm starting to think there is nothing to stop me from renting a pilot/instructor and plane, and getting in a little time on it but not official and not logged. Im a little worried as I am learning a lot and very excited, but have heard the actual exam is just plain strange. I have a exam test book with answers in the back and feel like they are terribly written.

One example, they ask (in Norwegian I know this is also a problem for me but am getting it down) "the rudder controls which axis?" With four possible answers. I chose (and knew I was correct) vertical axis, answer A, in the back as a grade myself it turns out it is answer C: normal axis. WITH the following explanation (translated) "c: the rudder controls the vertical axis (normal axis)" and yet it would be counted as a wrong answer.

Other ones where the correct answer (correction, one is supposed to choose the "most correct" answer) would seem to hint in one question that you can increase angle of attack indefinitely...

It seems less designed to test actual knowledge than to try and trip folk up. They give examples where (I did puzzle over this a while) the answers all have irrelevant elements to them. One about all speed which had answers referring to ground speed, and such. I finally understood it was just to trick folk, that you just ignore about half of the answer since it isn't relevant and focus on the relevant.

Meanwhile I'm in weather theory, and though I am interested, it's slow going, and soon the weather is going to be ideal to fly and I'm still going to be plugging away (hopefully in navigation by then).

Just before starting ground school I bought and read "Stick and Rudder" cover to cover. I understood a lot of it, because he writes so well and gives great examples, but did gloss over some here and there. Now that I have gone through the avionics, theory of aerodynamics and to take a break from weather, I started rereading it. I guess I have learned a good deal. It's still excellent to read (imagine I'm going to reread this many times, for many years) but I also suddenly am understanding more about the terminology, physics, and getting much more out of it.

I do think that at this stage, though I do have holes in my understanding, it would be ideal to start mixing actual flying with theory.
 
FastEddieB said:
Why would hot/humid affect pitch on approach at all?
Click to expand...

I was thinking less air density and pressure meant less lift, which I wasn't sure if it would mean one would want a different attitude/approach, maybe shallower? I thought I possibly might change the best way to come in? I got the answer that it wouldn't affect it. Good to know.

At this stage I'm taking in a lot and I notice a trend that many factors seem to be in play, that change with pressure, humidity, etc. where other things do not. I keep getting surprised that stall speed is the same at sea level as at higher altitudes where the airspeed indicator is off because of lower pressure density, and all kinds of these considerations, deviations from Standard atmosphere, and how the altimeter works, etc. and that just gets a student in the mode of thinking everything is affecting everything...except when it isn't.
 
Don't over think things.

We can get into the whole TAS vs IAS vs CAS vs GS vs BS, but your sight picture is going to remain the same.*


* - it will vary from plane to plane though.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I'm sure there are many different factors that would mean differences in this, but assuming an ideal runway, no obstacles, wind still, cold day...

On final approach or coming in straight, while in normal glide path, what ideally is the attitude of the plane on the last say 100 feet coming in for landing? Is the nose parallel with the ground, slightly up or more? I'm certainly going to find out when I I am done with ground school and can start flying but the question keeps bugging me, as I feel I ought to know but am not sure. I feel like there would be a need for keeping the nose somewhat down in order to have latitude to do the final flare to finally land, but I am really uncertain.

How about on a hot humid day, with some small crosswind? Does that change the desired attitude?
Click to expand...
Having not flown, why do you feel you should know this? :confused:

Pitch attitude for landing is going to depend on a number of factors you didn't mention. What airplane, your seat position, your height in the seat. (Also flap position but let's assume a full-flap landing.)

For example, a Cessna 172 has a definite nose high attitude at normal touchdown; a Cirrus is comparatively so nose-low that a Cessna driver doing a transition is likely to be concerned about a nose-first touchdown.

But, in general

At 100', the pitch attitude should be whatever produces your target airspeed. You will learn to recognize it. It is typically nose low.
At touchdown, when the mains touch the ground, the pitch attitude (refered to as the "flare") should be exactly the same as it was when the mains left the ground on takeoff.
The middle is a variety of pitch attitudes signifying the transition between the two, starting with a "level off" usually an approximation of your pitch attitude during cruise flight.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I was thinking less air density and pressure meant less lift, which I wasn't sure if it would mean one would want a different attitude/approach, maybe shallower? I thought I possibly might change the best way to come in? I got the answer that it wouldn't affect it. Good to know.
Click to expand...

Great!

The key is whether on a cold day at Death Valley or a hot day at Denver, you fly the same indicated airspeeds. With the same dynamic air pressure hitting the pitot tube and the wings, aerodynamics will be identical - including the pitch attitude.

Of course, what IS different is your TAS and ground speed, and that can be disorienting and dangerous if you've never experienced it before.
 
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FastEddieB said:
Great!

The key is whether on a cold day at Death Valley or a hot day at Denver, you fly the same indicated airspeeds. With the same dynamic air pressure hitting the pitot tube and the wings, aerodynamics will be identical - including the pitch attitude.

Of course, what IS different is your TAS and ground speed, and that can be disorienting and dangerous if you've never experienced it before.
Click to expand...

And your climb rate will be limited by that airspeed, which because of the engine producing less power, means the pitch attitude will look different on board. ;)

Gets confusing at that point, eh? Same AoA would work if the engine weren't wimping out, but since it is, it'll require a lower AoA not to stall with reduced power. Thus making a hot/high departure feel and look overall "shallower" unless you have a turbo or supercharger restoring engine power.

(The STOL kit is much more of a hoot at sea level, and the deck angle on climb out for the same airspeeds at home is higher because the ol' O-470 became a 230 HP engine again magically. Grin...)
 
This is a great little video to help students get some kind of an idea of a site picture for landing... I think I've posted it before...
 
Much of this sort of confusion comes from a lack of understanding--maybe a lack of training in--the relationship between angle of attack and airspeed. To keep the airplane airborne, you need a higher angle of attack at a low speed than you do at a higher speed. In a descent, the relative wind is coming up at the airplane, so the AoA is higher than it would be in level flight for a given pitch attitude. A student has to start picturing the airflow in different regimes. He also needs to understand what happens to AOA when load factor rises, as well; too many crashes are a result of fixation on airspeed only and ignoring the effect of the load factor on stall speed.

lesson4figure12.gif
 
I think on final, most GA planes will be roughly level gliding in on final power off sans flaps, and a tad nose down with full flaps.

But different planes can look very different. Pilots trained in planes with high panels can feel like they're nose low when transitioning to a Citabria or Grumman or Cirrus*. But that's an illusion, and with lots of experience switching between planes with different views over the nose becomes easier.


*Lots of pilots have opined that a Cirrus "lands flat", but from outside the attitude in a "full stall" landing is quite conventional.

14175266199_f6be63ba5f_m.jpg
 
What pitch attitude at 100 AGL? The same you used once you established your final approach speed, under most situations.

If you check out the Airplane Flying Handbook, it's page 8-5...

But the main gist of it is you'll start reducing power and increasing pitch when you're 20ish feet from the runway. Do you look at the altimeter and then pull? Nah. Just estimate visually when you're at the altitude (which will come with experience) and then start transitioning. You should go from your descent pitch to a power off pitch attitude as you get closer to the ground (the same attitude you normally do your power off stall with full flaps at). The trick is to pitch up and reduce power smoothly and at a rate that maintains a constant descent path down to the runway.

In summary, don't stress too much about it. It'll make 1000% more sense when you actually see it. Try to observe some flights from the back seat if you can. It really helps.
 
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pilot_joe said:
What pitch attitude at 100 AGL? The same you used once you established your final approach spees, under most situations.
If you check out the Airplane Flying Handbook, it's page 8-5...

But the main gist of it is you'll start reducing power and increasing pitch when you're 20ish feet from the runway. Do you look at the altimeter and then pull? Nah. Just estimate visually when you're at the altitude (which will come with experience) and then start transitioning. You should go from your descent pitch to a power off pitch attitude as you get closer to the ground (the same attitude you normally do your power off stall with full flaps at). The trick is to pitch up and reduce power smoothly and at a rate that maintains a constant descent path down to the runway.

In summary, don't stress too much about it. It'll make 1000% more sense when you actually see it. Try to observe some flights from the back seat if you can. It really helps.
Click to expand...

Excellent advice, as far as it goes. I found it valuable to take students down to the approach end of the runway and have them observe attitude on short final and the resulting landing. if there is a seaplane operation around, do the same thing...only emphasize what happens if the pilot does not get the nose of the floats above a level flight attitude at touchdown.

Bob Gardner
 
pilot_joe said:
But the main gist of it is you'll start reducing power and increasing pitch when you're 20ish feet from the runway.
Click to expand...

Whatever works, but for me messing with power at 20 feet makes the landing process more difficult than it needs to be by adding another variable right at the end.

I try to have the power at idle by 50 feet, preferably even sooner. I found that worked better for my students, and it still remains a good practice for me.
 
I saw a really great demonstration of touchdown pitch attitude. Student gets in the plane. Instructor goes to the back and pushes down on the rear end of the fuselage so the nosewheel is definitely off the ground but not ridiculously high.

"See that view out the window? That's what you want to see on touchdown."
 
midlifeflyer said:
I saw a really great demonstration of touchdown pitch attitude. Student gets in the plane. Instructor goes to the back and pushes down on the rear end of the fuselage so the nosewheel is definitely off the ground but not ridiculously high.

"See that view out the window? That's what you want to see on touchdown."
Click to expand...
How's that work in a taildragger? :D
 
midlifeflyer said:
I saw a really great demonstration of touchdown pitch attitude. Student gets in the plane. Instructor goes to the back and pushes down on the rear end of the fuselage so the nosewheel is definitely off the ground but not ridiculously high.

"See that view out the window? That's what you want to see on touchdown."
Click to expand...

I used to do that.

It's somewhat easier in a taildragger!
 
Add the power variable. If I land with power on my tailwheel will hit well before the mains. I prefer steep approaches and wheel landings for most ops.
 
The pitch angle is whatever you need to make the plane do what you want it to do. Pitch angle is a control input that you adjust to correct the plane's deviation from what you want it to do. You don't adjust it by setting it to a specific angle according to the phase of flight
 
FastEddieB said:
And yet a lot of basic attitude instrument flying emphasizes that exact skill!
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In IMC, I have no outside reference or instrument to know what the pitch attitude is. I know what direction I have to adjust pitch to get the desired result to correct a deviation or to cause a change but I don't know how many degrees of up or down pitch I have or had. What am I missing? No intent to be smart alecky. Just trying to understand.
 
When landing pitch controls speed, power controls altitude. In cruise the opposite is true.
 
Graueradler said:
In IMC, I have no outside reference or instrument to know what the pitch attitude is. I know what direction I have to adjust pitch to get the desired result to correct a deviation or to cause a change but I don't know how many degrees of up or down pitch I have or had. What am I missing? No intent to be smart alecky. Just trying to understand.
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Does your attitude indicator have degrees on it?

16.jpg


Even if it doesn't have degrees on it, it will have lines so that you can duplicate your pitch attitude for various phases of flight.

GH02V.jpg
 
Everskyward said:
Does your attitude indicator have degrees on it?

Even if it doesn't have degrees on it, it will have lines so that you can duplicate your pitch attitude for various phases of flight.QUOTE]

You are correct. Guess I'll go eat some crow.
Click to expand...
 
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Graueradler said:
In IMC, I have no outside reference or instrument to know what the pitch attitude is. I know what direction I have to adjust pitch to get the desired result to correct a deviation or to cause a change but I don't know how many degrees of up or down pitch I have or had. What am I missing? No intent to be smart alecky. Just trying to understand.
Click to expand...
Actually, you do that all the time in instrument training, not just in IMC. For instance, slow cruise is 2000 RPM and 10 deg pitch. Fast cruise is 2400 and flat pitch. In the 172 I trained in.

For primary training, I did something similar with the horizon, to pitch for Vx and Vy. Vx was about 4 deg higher than Vy.
 
MAKG1 said:
Actually, you do that all the time in instrument training, not just in IMC. For instance, slow cruise is 2000 RPM and 10 deg pitch. Fast cruise is 2400 and flat pitch. In the 172 I trained in.

For primary training, I did something similar with the horizon, to pitch for Vx and Vy. Vx was about 4 deg higher than Vy.
Click to expand...

I rarely/barely use the attitude indicator. Slow cruise is set airspeed with trim, and adjust throttle to reduce vertical speed to 0. Whatever the pitch ends up being is what it will end up being.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I saw a really great demonstration of touchdown pitch attitude. Student gets in the plane. Instructor goes to the back and pushes down on the rear end of the fuselage so the nosewheel is definitely off the ground but not ridiculously high.

"See that view out the window? That's what you want to see on touchdown."
Click to expand...

I do that with my glider students on their checkout for first flight in a single seat glider.
Their weight in the plane, nose skid on ground.
Push tail down to takeoff and landing attitude, look down the runway and fix that in your mind.
Push tail down until tailwheel on ground, we don't want that.

At the takeoff and landing attitude, the nose skid is only about 2inches off the ground. The pilots butt is about 6 inches above ground level.
 
Graueradler said:
You don't adjust it by setting it to a specific angle according to the phase of flight
Click to expand...

Pitch + Power = Performance?

"Control and Performance" instrument scan?

No, it won't be exactly the same each time...but it gets you a lot closer, and more quickly and smoothly, than chasing the performance instruments.
 
Stewartb said:
When landing pitch controls speed, power controls altitude. In cruise the opposite is true.
Click to expand...

Could you go into more detail on cruise? From my studies, and "stick and rudder" (and he makes a large point about it) the elevators always control speed, power controls altitude except in transition. By that I mean he points out the elvators will "balloon" the aircraft briefly, but not sustainably, just briefly until the plane adjusts. Maybe I'm missing something here?
 
Ever seen Bull Durham? "Don't think, just pitch...."

Don't think, just fly it.


Aviation in three sentences: "Measure it with a micrometer. Mark it with a grease pencil. Chop it with an axe."
 
LongRoadBob said:
Could you go into more detail on cruise? From my studies, and "stick and rudder" (and he makes a large point about it) the elevators always control speed, power controls altitude except in transition.
Click to expand...

Powerful word bolded, even with the disclaimer about "transition".

On an ILS approach in a plane equipped with an appropriate autopilot, what keeps the plane on glideslope and what keeps the plane on speed?

My impression is that glideslope is maintained with pitch and airspeed with autothrottles.

Is that not correct?
 
If the elevator ALWAYS controls speed, why do we even have engines? ;)


And what about V-tails?
 
For instance, from Instrument Flying Handbook:

"During a constant airspeed descent, any deviation from the desired airspeed calls for a pitch adjustment. For a constant rate descent, the entry is the same, but the VSI is primary for pitch control (after it stabilizes near the desired rate), and the ASI is primary for power control. Pitch and power must be closely coordinated when corrections are made, as they are in climbs."

Bolded/italics mine.
 
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